Meet the Press – August 8, 2021
CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: The fourth wave.
DR. SAMER FAHMY:
The rate of increase that we have seen over the last two weeks has been staggering.
CHUCK TODD:
Covid racing through the country at rates not seen since mid-winter.
HELEN EDDY:
If you’re not vaccinated you will get Covid at some point in time, and the only question will be how sick you will become.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden calls out Texas and Florida’s governors for opposing measures like mask mandates —
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If you aren’t going to help, at least get out of the way of the people who are trying to do the right thing.
CHUCK TODD:
— prompting pushback.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
Why don’t you get this border secure and, until you do that, I don’t want to hear a blip about Covid from you.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, as schools reopen —
STUDENT:
I did not want to go to school if we didn’t wear a mask.
CHUCK TODD:
— the debate grows over masking children —
PARENT:
Masks do more harm than good when it comes to our children.
CHUCK TODD:
— and over possible vaccine mandates for teachers. My guests this morning, Dr. Anthony Fauci, and the head of the country’s most powerful teachers union, Randi Weingarten. Also, Andrew Cuomo, facing impeachment.
LETITIA JAMES:
Governor Cuomo sexually harassed multiple women by engaging in unwanted groping, kisses, hugging and by making inappropriate comments.
CHUCK TODD:
The New York governor denies the allegations, but his fellow Democrats say it’s time for him to go.
REPORTER:
Are you now calling on him to resign?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Amy Walter, editor-in-chief and publisher of the Cook Political Report, Jake Sherman, co-founder of the Punchbowl News website, former Maryland Congresswoman Donna Edwards and former White House political director for George W. Bush, Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and it’s nice to be back after a few weeks away. I hope you’ve enjoyed the Olympics, I know I’ve enjoyed watching Team USA do pretty well. We return with the country, though, facing two compounding challenges: the Delta variant and polarization. Delta is burning through the country right now, creating a growing — but sadly preventable — fourth wave of Covid infections. In fact, right now, the seven-day average number of new confirmed cases has soared to nearly 118,000, this is right now the highest we’ve had it since February. And while vaccination rates are rising again and 50% of the country has now been fully vaccinated, this is now largely a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and that’s a direct result of the political polarization I was referring to. Vaccination hesitancy — or just plain opposition — is infected by politics. Check this out, NBC News has found that the 20 states with the highest rates of vaccinations, they all voted for President Biden. Eighteen of the 21 states with the lowest rates all voted for President Trump. Need we say more? Nevertheless, the wave is taking its toll on President Biden, he’s the president of all the states. In a new CNBC poll, approval of Mr. Biden’s handling of the coronavirus is sitting at 53%, that’s down from 62% in April, when cases were falling dramatically. The president’s overall approval rating is holding steady at 48%, still higher than President Trump ever was during his four years. The irony that the unvaccinated, who sparked this surge, never supported Mr. Biden in the first place is not lost on this White House. But as Mr. Biden is learning, whether he likes it or not, as Covid goes, so goes his presidency.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. So we have to get more people vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
With cases spiking in 38 states and up in all 50, the Delta variant is driving a surge of hospitalizations and deaths, ripping through the southern United States.
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
If Florida and Louisiana were countries and not states, they would be number one in two in the world for the incidence of Covid.
DR. CATHERINE O’NEAL:
We currently are admitting one Covid patient per 45 minutes.
NURSE:
We are back to square one, that’s why I’m frustrated.
CHUCK TODD:
16 states have banned vaccine mandates in some form. Eight have banned mask mandates in schools, as cases in children and teens are on the rise. President Biden, whose presidency rests on his Covid response, expressed his frustration.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I say to these governors: Please, help. But if you aren’t going to help, at least get out of the way.
CHUCK TODD:
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis fired back – as new cases in Florida this week hit an all-time high.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
We can either have a free society, or we can have a biomedical security state and I can tell you, Florida, we’re a free state.
CHUCK TODD:
But many public officials frustrated by deja vu all over again are beginning to point fingers at the unvaccinated.
GOV. KAY IVEY:
It’s time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
You’ve lost your minds. You are the ultimate knuckleheads.
CHUCK TODD:
Vaccination rates are up in some of the hardest-hit states, but for those who remain unvaccinated – just 37% say Delta has prompted them to wear masks.
MISSOURI MAN:
I’ve never been vaccinated. I think a lot of it’s BS. But that’s my feelings.
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
We truly have two Ohios. One group of people who are safe. One who are not.
CHUCK TODD:
This weekend, an estimated 700,000 are gathering in Sturgis, South Dakota for a motorcycle rally which became a super-spreader event last year. Seeking to combat a rising tide of misinformation —
ARKANSAS RESIDENT:
What’s in the vaccine? Give me the insert sheet!
CHUCK TODD:
— some Republican officials are shifting their tone.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
We’re going to be living with people dying if we do not increase our vaccination rate.
CHUCK TODD:
While a growing number of companies institute vaccine requirements for employees and states and cities begin to consider them too.
SEN. JON TESTER:
I think we need to get all hands on deck informing people how important this is but I don’t think we can sell a mandate in Montana.
CHUCK TODD:
Hospitalization rates among the vaccinated remain low. But worries over a rising number of breakthrough cases prompted another change in CDC messaging. Two weeks ago —
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
If you’re vaccinated, you have exceptional levels of protection from that vaccine, and you may choose to add an extra layer of protection by putting on your mask and that’s a very individual choice.
CHUCK TODD:
But just days later the CDC recommended vaccinated people wear masks indoors in nearly 90% of the country.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
Those people can now, with the more transmissible Delta variant, transmit to other people.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He is, of course, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet The Press. And I have to tell you, it feels like déjà vu all over again, sir.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
It sure does, Chuck. It sure does.
CHUCK TODD:
Well let me —
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
This is a very difficult situation and you described it very well.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, let me start with the CDC guidance and a bit of that confusion. And I say this, I know it’s easy to backseat drive right now with Delta, but you were concerned about Delta in June. Obviously, the WHO was concerned about it in May. And yet, here you — in late June, were saying — you feared that this was going to be the dominant strain and perhaps become a problem within a month. Well, here we are, but in those intervening days, there’s been a ton of confusion from the CDC about when should we wear masks for the vaccinated, how transmissible is Delta among the vaccinated? Some of this has contributed, I think, to the frustration that we see out there today. Can we try to clear some of this up? How dangerous is this Delta variant for the vaccinated and the unvaccinated?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, it’s extremely dangerous for the unvaccinated because, if they get infected and if they stay unvaccinated and don’t wear masks, ultimately they’re going to wind up getting infected. And that’s what we’re concerned about. It is, as we’ve said, a pandemic and an outbreak of the unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated, you are very well protected against getting infected. Since no vaccine is 100% protective, there will be what we call breakthrough infections. That’s the bad news. The good news is that almost invariably that will be an infection that is either without symptoms or minimally symptomatic, which means the vaccine still protects extremely well against severe disease leading to hospitalization and deaths. But the interesting and unfortunate thing that we found out that gets to the mask issue is that this virus is so easily transmissible that, if a vaccinated person gets a breakthrough infection, which will happen, Chuck. You can expect that because no vaccine is 100% effective. Back when we were dealing with the Alpha variant, the level of virus was very low in the nasal pharynx of a vaccinated person if they got infected. Now, we’re finding that the level of virus is really quite high, which means one of the bad things about all of this is that even though you’re protected from getting severe disease, if you’re infected, you can transmit it to someone else even if you’re vaccinated. And that’s the fundamental basis of now saying people should be wearing masks in indoor public places when you’re in a region that has a high level of infection.
CHUCK TODD:
How much of this CDC guidance change has come from the fact that we’re not doing enough surveillance? Are we doing enough testing of the vaccinated? I mean, it seems now, I think, some people wish we had been, you know, instead of doing what we had in Provincetown, that maybe we should have more testing of the vaccinated so we can know more about these breakthrough cases. Do you have enough data, as a scientist, to know for sure what these breakthrough cases are doing to people?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, previously we didn’t. We’d have to admit that, that early on it was said to just give testing for people who have had contact with people who were infected, who were symptomatic. Now, it’s very clear you’ve got to go beyond that, Chuck, because we know now, from experience here and in other countries, that you will have people who are asymptomatic, who get into contact with an asymptomatic person who is infected, and you’ll know that there will be more infections that otherwise would have gone undetected. So, you’re quite right, we need to do more testing.
CHUCK TODD:
Let’s go with what the next month’s going to look like. You seem to have a dire picture. You expect — we’re at 118,000 cases today as the seven-day average. You’re expecting it to hit 200. Our peak was 256,000, according to our data. This is pre-vaccine. I mean, this seems to be, this seems to be not only are we back to square one, but where does this lead us for the next three months? Are we going to have an even worse fall and winter?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, Chuck, there are two really serious aspects about this. As we’ve said all along, this is fundamentally an outbreak, a pandemic among the unvaccinated. That has proven true. You said that in the lead-in to the show. No doubt about that. One of the problems of that is you don’t want people to get sick and to get hospitalized and to die. And that is actually happening now predominantly, overwhelmingly predominantly among the unvaccinated. But there’s another aspect to that that concerns us in the public health sector when you have the dynamics of virus that continues to have the virus circulate in the community as we’re seeing mostly in unvaccinated parts of the country, usually the southern states, as you mentioned. What happens if you allow the virus to freely circulate, there’s a tenet that everybody knows in virology. A virus will not mutate unless you allow it to replicate. So, if you allow the virus to freely circulate and not try and stop it, sooner or later there is a likelihood that you will get another variant that could, I’m not saying it will, that could be more problematic than the Delta. Fortunately for us, the vaccines do quite well against Delta, particularly in protecting you from severe disease. But if you give the virus the chance to continue to change, you’re leading to a vulnerability that we might get a worse variant. And then, that will impact not only the unvaccinated; that will impact the vaccinated because that variant could evade the protection of the vaccine. So, people who are unvaccinated should think about their own health, that of their family, but also the community responsibility to crush this virus before it becomes even worse.
CHUCK TODD:
You’ve brought up regionally the South. But out in the Plains, in the Great Plains, we have Sturgis, South Dakota, there’s a gathering right now of some 700,000 people. Last year, it was a smaller turnout and it was over about 150,000 people. And it led to a massive outbreak in the Dakotas, where they became number one and number two for essentially the rest of the calendar year of cases. What do you expect this rally to do to that part of the country?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I’m very concerned, Chuck, that we’re going to see another surge related to that rally. I mean, to me, it’s, it’s understandable that people want to do the kinds of things they want to do. They want their freedom to do that. But there comes a time when you’re dealing with a public health crisis that could involve you, your family, and everyone else, that something supersedes that need to do exactly what you want to do. I mean, you’re going to ultimately be able to do that in the future, but let’s get this pandemic under control before we start acting like nothing is going on. I mean, something bad is going on. I mean, we’ve got to realize that.
CHUCK TODD:
Vaccine mandates, we know the government isn’t going to do vaccine mandates, but are you going to attempt to create the conditions to allow private businesses and other entities to do vaccine mandates? Is that sort of the next phase of what the federal response can do?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Absolutely, Chuck. As you know, and I’ve said it several times on your show, that you’re not going to see a federally, from the federal government, mandating vaccines for the country. But I’ll, I’m almost certain, in fact I am certain, that as soon as the FDA fully approves the vaccines that are now under —
CHUCK TODD:
And when is that?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
— emergency use authorization —
CHUCK TODD:
I don’t mean to interrupt, but when is that?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You — you know, Chuck, no one wants to get ahead of the FDA because they’re an independent group that makes their decisions. And that’s good in many respects because there will never be any concern that we’re influencing them. But I hope, I don’t predict, but I hope that it will be within the next few weeks. I hope it’s within the month of August.
CHUCK TODD:
Ok.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
If that’s the case, you’re going to see the empowerment of local enterprises giving mandates. That could be colleges, universities, places of business, a whole variety. And I strongly support that. The time has come and we’ve got to go the extra step to get people vaccinated. You want to persuade them, that’s good. And I believe that some people, on their own, once it gets approved as a full approval will go ahead and get vaccinated. But for those who do not want, I believe mandates at the local level need to be done.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to go through a couple of myths that are out there about the virus. First of all, and this is among people that don’t want to get vaccinated, and I want to play some sound for you of some folks explaining why they haven’t gotten vaccinated. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
UNVACCINATED PERSON 1:
No, I have not been vaccinated. I have had Covid, as did he had —
UNVACCINATED PERSON 2:
I had Covid.
UNVACCINATED PERSON 1:
— last winter.
UNVACCINATED PERSON 3:
I had it already. I kicked its butt!
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That seems to be, I’ve heard this from, frankly, from friends and family in my circle. « Oh, I’ve had Covid. I don’t need the vaccine yet. » What do you say?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, there have been recent studies that clearly show that if you’ve had Covid, you might be protected for a while against the original virus that you were infected with. But when variants come along, you are vulnerable. And there was a study that came out within this past week that showed that if you are infected, recover, and get one shot of the vaccine, your protection doubles what it would be if you got two shots of the vaccine and were not infected. So, it is a major advantage for people who have been infected and recovered to really strongly protect them against getting re-infected with the new variant. That’s the reason why we strongly recommend that even if you have been infected, that you get vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me get another myth, and we’ve actually heard this from some health care workers who are being resistant to getting the vaccine, which is, « Well, I wear a mask, and I keep myself healthy. I use all the sanitation that there is, and I’m very careful. I don’t need to get vaccinated. » What do you say?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I think just the reality, the reality, Chuck, and history proves that wrong. There are people who have tried their best, done, you know, put masks on and washed their hands. This is a very, very transmissible virus. The best protection is getting vaccinated. There’s no doubt about that.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, should there be a vaccine mandate for all health care workers? I have to tell you, it seems almost irrational that we don’t have a vaccine mandate —
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
— in senior homes, okay. The idea that that isn’t there —
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Right. Right.
CHUCK TODD:
And I understand what you said, and there is some talk of using, sort of, federal funds to almost coerce some of these folks. But, you know, you’re a leading person in the medical community. Can you imagine having anybody that works in the medical community refusing the vaccine?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, it happens, but that is, that is amazing. It’s just, it’s inexplicable to me. You are a health care worker. Your profession, the thing you’ve devoted your life to is to protect people, to make them well, to protect them from disease. But Chuck, this is not something that’s new. I mean, I see patients at the NIH Clinical Center. If I don’t get flu vaccine or hepatitis vaccine, I’m not allowed to see patients. So, this isn’t something that’s brand new with Covid. So, I’m very much in favor of mandating, if you want to see patients and you want to participate in health care, you need to get vaccinated, period.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about boosters. Particularly, there’s a lot of folks over the age of 60 watching. They are hitting their six-month mark. What do you tell them? Right now they’ve been saying, you know, there’s a lot of noise out there that says they’re probably going to need a booster. Considering this Delta variant, some of them may go out there and just go get, go get one anyway. What would you say to someone watching right now who’s wondering if they should get this booster because they’ve hit their six-month anniversary?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah. Well, Chuck, first for the clarity of our viewers, some things sometimes get confused. If you’re a person who has an immune compromise, transplant, cancer chemotherapy, immunosuppressive therapy, you likely never got a good response to begin with. So, it isn’t that the durability of the response went down. For those individuals, I am strongly in favor of getting them that additional shot as soon as possible. Then you get to your question, which is the elderly and others. There’s no doubt that over time you’re going to have an attenuation of protection. If you look at the data from Pfizer, Pfizer shows it went down from the 90s down to around 84 after a few months. The recent data for Moderna shows that it isn’t really going down, but every assumes, and I think correctly, that sooner or later you’re going to see an attenuation to the point where we’re going to have to give an additional boost to people, very likely the elderly, before you give it to otherwise normal people who are not old. That’s going to happen as soon as the data gets to us. And we’re following it on a weekly basis. As soon as it looks like it’s getting down below a critical point, then we’re going to get the vaccines for those individuals.
CHUCK TODD:
So, they may get a booster. People — kids 12 and under have yet to get any vaccine and we’re seeing an alarming number of hospitalizations now, particularly in children’s hospitals. We’re seeing it down in Florida, for sure. How concerned are you about this? And is this, you know, we had a lot of semi-comfort that, hey, you know, if kids got Covid, they were going to be okay. That doesn’t seem to be the case now.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No, it’s not. And that’s something that we’ve been saying all along, where others have said, « No, no problem with children. » There is a problem with children. You’ve got to separate and make sure you get the facts. The likelihood of a child getting serious disease compared to an elderly person or someone with an underlying condition is absolutely less, but less doesn’t mean zero. And there are a lot of children now– all you need to do is do a survey of the pediatric hospitals throughout the country, and you’re seeing a considerable number of young people who are not only infected, but who are seriously ill. Again, the numbers compared to the elderly are less, but that’s a false comparison. These kids are getting sick. We’ve really got to make sure we protect them.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you imagine an elementary school anywhere that didn’t have a mask mandate, considering what we’re seeing right now, with kids under 12? I know the politics of it, but leave that out of it. Just with what you’re seeing on the scientific basis.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
There’s no doubt about that in my mind. There are two things you do with children who are not vaccinated, and that’s the recommendation. You surround them with those who can be vaccinated, whoever they are, teachers, personnel in the school, anyone, get them vaccinated. So, protect the kids with a shield of vaccinated people. For the kids who can’t get vaccinated, that’s the reason why we’re having a strong recommendation that, in the schools, everybody should wear a mask, whether or not you’re vaccinated. We’ve got to protect the children, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and that’s a topic that we’re about to tackle even more in depth in a few minutes. Dr. Anthony Fauci, as always, sir, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise with us.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck. Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, more on that issue with kids. Should teachers be required to be vaccinated? I’m going to ask the head of the nation’s most powerful teachers union, who’s evolving on the issue herself. That’s next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. With many children returning to school this month, the debate over whether teachers should be required to be vaccinated has grown. Until recently, Randi Weingarten, the head of the powerful American Federation of Teachers, said her 1.7 million union members should not be coerced into getting Covid vaccinations. Though she would note, just about all of her members said they either had or were going to get them. But on Thursday, Weingarten said that the rapid spread of the Delta variant has left her open to considering being supportive of a vaccine mandate. Well, Randi Weingarten joins me now from New York. So let me just start right there. And I know there’s, this is probably — there’s probably a lot more that goes with this. You’d like to see a vaccine mandate is my understanding. But what, what does that mean for the teachers’ union?
RANDI WEINGARTEN:
So let me — first off, Chuck, thank you for having me on. And, you know, I’ve been around the country this week. I was in Florida, in Missouri as we’re pushing a full-court press for back to school. And the Delta variants are alarming. And the spread is alarming. And you’ve already said it’s a pandemic of the unvaccinated. I’m not going to repeat what you or Dr. Fauci said. So let me just be personal for a moment, which is that vaccines are the single most important way of dealing with Covid. We’ve always dealt with, or since 1850, we’ve dealt with vaccines in schools. It’s not a new thing to have immunizations in schools. And I think that on a personal matter, as a matter of personal conscience, I think that we need to be working with our employers, not opposing them, on vaccine mandates, and so — you know, and all their vaccine policies. And so I said last week that I wanted to bring my leadership together, and we are this week, to, you know, revisit and to reconsider our policy that we passed in October about voluntary — that the best way to do this was to do it volitionally. Now, let me just say, my members have stepped up. 90% of the teacher members have actually gotten the vaccine. But I do think that the circumstances have changed and that vaccination is a community responsibility. And it weighs really heavily on me that kids under 12 can’t get vaccinated. And so that’s — so, you know, that’s — I very rarely, you know, separate my personal views from, you know, where I am as a leader of the union. But I have really watched, particularly in Florida and Missouri. I was in St. Louis yesterday. I was in Florida on Saturday. And you just see this. And we have to counter — look, you said it earlier — we have to counter the misinformation. We have to do — this is a public health crisis. And the politics are infecting it. But I felt the need as, you know, to bring people together and to stand up and say this as a matter of personal conscience.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I’m going to put up a graphic here that sort of reinforces the point you’re actually making here about the explosion of these cases, particularly among the unvaccinated. In this case, it’s kids. And cases continue to climb. Throughout the month of July — 71,000 cases this week of children. So let me put it this way. Should there be an elementary school teacher in America that’s allowed to teach children in class that isn’t vaccinated?
RANDI WEINGARTEN:
Well, look. There are significant religious objections and exemptions, and significant medical objections and exemptions. And, you know, as someone who’s married to a rabbi, I want to be very careful that we have to honor those religious exemptions. But, you know, there’s ways of which you can do accommodations in all sorts of different ways, which is part of the reason you have to work together on these, on these vaccine policies. I thought what Joe Biden did in terms of the federal government, of saying vaccine and test or test was important and we are supporting that. I thought what Bill DeBlasio did was very important as well. The combination of vaccines and masks I think will protect our, our youngest children. But we also have to work with parents, like we were in St. Louis yesterday, in terms of getting our kids vaccinated — you know, those who can get it. And I think that when the FDA gives final approval, like the Kaiser Family Foundation poll suggested, you saw 30% of the unvaccinated said that they would be more comfortable. The disinformation campaign and what the people like Governor Abbott and Governor DeSantis are doing, they are hurting people in terms of their public health by this disinformation campaign. I know I will now get a huge amount of pushback from Fox if I, when I’m about to say this. Fox, that disinformation campaign is terrible. I’m glad Sean Hannity finally got up and said, « I support the vaccines. » People need to hear that. But the disinformation campaign is terrible and the disinformation campaign about teachers, they’ve been heroes. They’ve been out there trying to help in every which way.
CHUCK TODD:
So, how — look, we’ve got, we’ve got a handful of states that have banned mask mandates. So we know that there’s a few Florida jurisdictions that are going to try to put a mask mandate in for schools despite the law that was signed by the governor. But how many teachers do you have in your union that may not want to show up to work if there’s no mask mandate?
RANDI WEINGARTEN:
Look, there’s a lot of fear right now all across the country. But what — but teachers actually know that the single most effective protection for them is to get a vaccine, which is why you see our numbers, NEA’s numbers, the White House’s numbers. I think we are probably the most vaccinated profession right now. So, but yeah, they’re scared. And we’re polling them right now, and, but they also know — let me just be clear. The number one priority is to get kids to be back in school. And that’s why I’m all across the country, that’s why we have moved $5 million to our locals to do these back to school campaigns. You know, and the scope of it is vast. We have 1,800 locals of the 3,500 engaged in these back to school campaigns that, as I said from St. Louis, part of what we were doing yesterday with the district was a vaccine clinic. So yes, people are scared. They want to protect everyone. Our North star has been keeping everything safe, as you’ve heard me over and over again. But we know kids need to be in school.
CHUCK TODD:
Randi Weingarten, President of the American Federation for Teachers coming out for a vaccine mandate for teachers. I know implementing it’s going to be difficult. But I appreciate you coming on and sharing your views with us.
RANDI WEINGARTEN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, we’re going to look at the politics of Covid and at the other big story of the week, the sexual harassment findings against New York’s governor, Andrew Cuomo, and his fight to stay in office, a fight that few believe he’s going to win. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us. Yes, with us in the studio. Amy Walter, the brand new title here, Editor-in-Chief and Publisher of what is now the Cook Political Report with Amy Walter. Charlie Cook’s still around, of course.
AMY WALTER:
Of course.
CHUCK TODD:
We should note that. We should note that. You’re just doing now all the hard work. Jake Sherman, co-founder of The Punchbowl News website; former White House political director during the George W. Bush years, Sara Fagen; and former Maryland Congresswoman Donna Edwards. Welcome to you all. Look, I want to get to the Cuomo story. But I do want to get to Covid politics here in a minute, Amy. And, look, let’s frame the discussion. Biden, DeSantis. Here’s the back and forth.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN
If some governors aren’t willing to do the right thing to beat this pandemic, then they should allow businesses and universities who want to do the right thing to be able to do it.
GOV. RON DESANTIS
Joe Biden has taken to himself to try to single out Florida over Covid. This is a guy who ran for president saying he was going to, quote, « shut down the virus. » And what has he done? He’s imported more virus from around the world by having a wide, open southern border.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, both of them had some shakier poll numbers today than they did a month ago when we weren’t at 100,000+ cases here. This why we’re seeing finger pointing?
AMY WALTER:
We are. But we’re also you know, it’s really interesting, Chuck, and looking from April until now, in many of these new polls, some of them you pointed out, what you’re seeing actually is, as the Delta variant has come into play, people have actually become more hardened in their partisanship. So Republicans have become more against mandates. Democrats have become more solidly for them. Republicans much more against the CDC masking or saying they disapprove how the CDC’s handling masking. Democrats approve more strongly. So both sides are just digging in even deeper which, as you know, in politics and in life, you’re not going to convince anybody.
CHUCK TODD:
Boy, I’ll tell you, guys —
AMY WALTER:
You’re not trying to convince anybody.
CHUCK TODD:
Jake, this feels like — and we just saw it with schools. We just had a little discussion here. This feels like this is about to explode as schools come and this hardening shows up in the classroom.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Biggest problem Joe Biden faces. I mean, we say all the time, I was talking to a member of Congress the other day, who said, « His entire presidency is about Covid. » People don’t feel good. Their kids are not going back to school. He’s already facing, by the way, a resurgent Republican Party that thinks they’re going to win the House of Representatives in 2022, with good reason. He is quickly seeing, it’s obviously not the end of his presidency, but this next, you know, he’s facing that real possibility, that Republicans are going to take the House. Schools are becoming less and less certain what the climate’s going to look like. And I think that’s a huge problem for him.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara, there’s some risk here for Governor DeSantis though to keep doubling down on the base rhetoric, when his numbers are going down because Floridians are frustrated too.
SARA FAGEN:
Sure. I mean, people are frustrated everywhere. And, you know, they were told when the vaccines came out and when they got vaccinated this would all get better. And it’s not. And some of it is the unvaccinated but, you know, we’re seeing these breakthrough cases. And so I think any chief executive is experiencing frustration from their constituents. But at the end of the day, you know, this is Joe Biden’s pandemic now. And that has become very, very clear. You know, he rode into office as cases were starting to go down after winter. They’re going up. And, you know, even though his approval is holding strong, if we were sitting here a month from now, I don’t think that’s going to be the case.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Donna, I have to say, the biggest ball drop here I think communications-wise has been with the CDC. It is, before, we thought it was the way the Trump folks were handling the CDC. But, you know, where are the daily briefings? Where is — I get this sense that’s where there’s a bit of a ball drop on this end of things.
DONNA EDWARDS:
Well, I do think the public has been really confused because, the messaging has been, you know, it’s been a lot of mixed messaging. On the other hand, I think what you saw, began to see, over this last week is the White House again taking control of the messaging coming out about where the administration is going with, you know, with vaccines, what the rollout is going to be from the FDA. I think that it’s a moving target because this virus is a moving target. And, until there’s more control over the virus and getting more people vaccinated, it really complicates the messaging.
CHUCK TODD:
We could’ve used those daily White House briefings these last two weeks, I will say this. Those things that we all knocked about a year and a half ago, those might’ve been helpful. All right, let’s turn to the dominant political story right now this summer, and that’s Andrew Cuomo. Here’s Letitia James, the attorney general of New York, laying out the allegations against the governor.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LETITIA JAMES:
The investigation found that Governor Andrew Cuomo sexually harassed current and former New York State employees by engaging in unwelcome and nonconsensual touching and making numerous offensive comments of a suggestive and sexual nature that created a hostile work environment for women.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
As a colleague said on the air to me, I said, « He’s a man on an island » and this person said, « Yeah, and high tide’s coming. » Right, so Amy, I mean, it’s not a matter of if, but when.
AMY WALTER:
And how.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, how?
AMY WALTER:
And how, right.
CHUCK TODD:
How does this work?
AMY WALTER:
So do you want to be impeached and become the second governor in the history of New York —
CHUCK TODD:
And never be able to hold public office ever again in New York. And he may — a Cuomo not being able to run for office. Think about that.
AMY WALTER:
Okay. Right. So do you want to do that? Or do you want to say, « I’m not running for reelection, but I’m not going to resign »?
CHUCK TODD:
Little late for that.
AMY WALTER:
Do you want to say, « I’m going to resign » once you see the numbers? You know, other politicians have been able to survive. We think about Bill Clinton, we think about Donald Trump, in part because they had the base with them. You know, both of those still had core support from their base. You go back and you look at the polling even a month ago, Chuck, 50-something-% of Democrats said, « He shouldn’t be impeached. » Today, 50-something-% of Democrats say Cuomo should be impeached.
JAKE SHERMAN:
How does — if the legislature does not –there’s no incentive for them not to impeach him.
SARA FAGEN:
Right. It doesn’t matter. His career is over whether he is impeached, whether he resigns, whether he doesn’t run again. His career is over.
CHUCK TODD:
Right, but Donna —
SARA FAGEN:
There’s no coming back from this for him.
CHUCK TODD:
No doubt, but if you’re the Democratic Party in New York —
AMY WALTER:
That’s right. That’s right.
CHUCK TODD:
When do you need him out? You need him out, like, when the calendar says ’21, not when the calendar says ’22, correct?
DONNA EDWARDS:
Well, I mean, Democrats don’t need this to be an ongoing story. And it’s not just a New York story, it’s a national story. And so I think, you know, that’s why you see that Mario Cuomo has not one single —
CHUCK TODD:
Andrew.
DONNA EDWARDS:
— Democrat —
CHUCK TODD:
Andrew. Andrew. I’ve done —
DONNA EDWARDS:
Mario.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way —
DONNA EDWARDS:
Andrew —
CHUCK TODD:
— Donna, I’ve been doing it too. So no worries. I’ve been doing this too.
DONNA EDWARDS:
Andrew.
CHUCK TODD:
Sorry, Matilda. I don’t want her —
DONNA EDWARDS:
Right. He has not one Democratic defender. And that is the difference, you know, between Clinton and others. There are no Democrats defending him.
SARA FAGEN:
He’s a particularly callous kind of abuser because it’s one thing to be a sexual harasser and never talk about it. It’s quite another I mean, both are terrible. But it’s quite another to be on the forefront, to have the most aggressive legislation, to have the most aggressive language, flanked by Hollywood actresses. You’re the standard-bearer for what is right in America, and then to have this come out.
CHUCK TODD:
Jake, some interesting insiders who have been very much prominent on the Me Too movement have gotten caught up in this. This has really dealt a little bit of a credibility blow for some of these folks.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Absolutely. And I think what’s most stunning is just the Chuck Schumer, all of his long time political allies, are just taking the opportunity to throw him under the bus and to ask him to move on. And I just think back to what Amy said. If he says, « I’m not running again, » I still think they have to impeach him. I still think they have to get rid of him.
CHUCK TODD:
That was a three-month-ago idea. I think if he did that three months ago, Tish James’ report might’ve been different. But he never chose to go that path. But there you go. In fact, he was going to run for reelection —
AMY WALTER:
That’s right.
CHUCK TODD:
— as of a week ago —
AMY WALTER:
Absolutely right.
CHUCK TODD:
— according to folks I talked to. All right, when we come back, yes, there is a strong progressive movement in the Democratic party. But it turns out the base of the Democratic party in elections is a bit more Biden than Bernie. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It’s Data Download time. There’s been talk for the past few cycles about the left taking on more control in the Democratic Party. The squad gets a lot of headlines. And this week, progressive Congresswoman Cori Bush’s protest about the eviction moratorium did force some action from the White House. But at the polls, it’s a much different story. It’s the moderates who keep winning. Look, it started in 2020 with the big “Bernie versus Biden » primary. And Biden won quite handily, you know? There’s evidence number one. But it has continued all this year. This was a special Congressional election in Louisiana. It was the pragmatist or the moderate that beat back a progressive challenger. We saw it again earlier this week in Akron, Ohio, where you saw Shontel Brown beat Nina Turner, who was a well-known surrogate for Bernie Sanders back in 2020. We saw it, by the way, in the Virginia gubernatorial primary. And we saw it in the New York City Democratic mayoral primary, where Eric Adams beat back a slew of progressive candidates. Look, the bottom line is: at the ballot box, we have an idea of what the base of the Democratic Party looks like. It looks a lot more like the Democratic coalition that Joe Biden put together. In Congress right now, the base of the party is perceived of the progressives. The question is: where are Democrats going to govern? Govern towards that base in the electorate, or the supposed base on social media and that they’ve seen elected to some parts of Congress? When we come back, more evidence that in politics, Twitter is just not America.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. So we had some, we showed you about some of those special elections just now in Data Download. And, and Donna Edwards, this progressive versus the Biden wing of the party, it seems to be pretty one-sided right now, but there’s, there’s some sore feelings. I’m going to play the Nina Turner, I guess I should put the words « concession » in quotes, « concession » speech here. Here it is.
[BEGIN TAPE]
NINA TURNER:
I am going to work hard to ensure that something like this never happens to a progressive candidate again. See, we didn’t lose this race. Evil money manipulated and maligned this election.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, Hakeem Jeffries, who is in leadership, a New York Democrat, he said this — who endorsed Maya Wiley — so this was a progressive, somebody who endorsed the progressive in New York City’s mayor’s race. Here’s what he said, in sort of response, almost indirectly to Nina Turner, « The extreme left is obsessed with talking trash about mainstream Democrats on Twitter, when the majority of the electorate constitute mainstream Democrats at the polls. In the post-Trump era, the anti-establishment line of attack is lame. » Where do you come down?
DONNA EDWARDS:
Wow. Look, I think that in this particular election, there were a lot of local factors that went into that, into that Ohio special election. The other thing though I would say is that if you look at policy and where the policies that progressives are driving in the Democratic party, progressives are winning that battle. And so, you know, whether that plays out in, in primaries and elections is a different question altogether. I mean, look, I won, you know, as the extreme left in a Democratic primary —
CHUCK TODD:
But you were, yeah, but you were, that was a, you also had a, an ethically challenged opponent, if I’m not mistaken —
DONNA EDWARDS:
Well —
CHUCK TODD:
— at the time.
DONNA EDWARDS:
— I, I think that’s true, but I, what I will say though is that progressive policies can win. And so, you know, you see that both coming from the White House, but also looking at what’s happening on Capitol Hill.
JAKE SHERMAN:
I mean, look at what happened this week, right? I mean, Cori Bush slept on the stairs of the Capitol and forced the administration to do a complete 180° on the eviction moratorium. I mean, progressives, I will agree, I think that progressives are learning in a big way, how to fight back legislatively. And that’s not something that we’ve seen from an organizational perspective, and, and, and force Nancy Pelosi’s hands. I mean, yeah, it’s a big — they are winning policy-wise. And I’m not, I’m not really one to admit that, but yes, they are.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Sara, that actually reminds me of what we saw on the, on the right, is a similar thing that the conservatives would win more on policy, but not sometimes do as well at the ballot box, or sometimes vice-versa.
SARA FAGEN:
Well, and I, I actually think the Democrats are four or five years behind the Republicans, where the moderates are winning the elections, but eventually, the progressives are going to catch up and start winning more. And you’re going to see polarization continue in this country. But, you know, the, the progressives aren’t just winning the policy debates, they’re completely in control of it. And you pointed out the eviction moratorium, that’s a prime example of it. Look at the infrastructure debate. This bill that’s about to pass, this bi– truly bipartisan bill, is going to get held up in the House of Representatives because Nancy Pelosi has to placate her left wing. Joe Biden should have a signing ceremony the East Room this week. He’s not going to get that.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, months away from that —
DONNA EDWARDS:
Well —
SARA FAGEN:
Yeah, correct.
DONNA EDWARDS:
— I don’t, I don’t know that that’s really true. I mean, I think that what’s happened on the budget reconciliation is that Democrats struck a deal. And you know what? This is Biden’s —
SARA FAGEN:
No —
DONNA EDWARDS:
— rec — this is Biden’s reconciliation. You look at every one of those provisions, and they are the ones that are being promoted by —
SARA FAGEN:
They are putting —
DONNA EDWARDS:
— the president.
SARA FAGEN:
— that deal at risk. This is a win. This’ll be the most significant Biden accomplishment, aside from COVID relief, and the progressives are holding it up.
DONNA EDWARDS:
It’ll be a complete win.
AMY WALTER:
I think, I think it’s too big to fail right now. I think Democrats, absolutely, they’re going to line up when all is said and done. And what’s changed so much, Sara, from the time when we were doing this work was that it’s not just that the progressives are winning, it’s that the, the people who were in the middle, or the conservative Democrats, are all gone. And the more moderate Republicans are all gone. And so we, we do have more homogeneous caucuses. But I do agree. I think on policy, the fact is this White House is much more progressive than the Obama White House.
SARAH FAGEN: Yes.
AMY WALTER:
And they don’t have votes on —
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
AMY WALTER:
— specific things like a Green New Deal or Medicare For All–
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
AMY WALTER:
— but on just the big picture policy, when you think about how much further to the left the, the, the rate– the policy is —
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
AMY WALTER:
— that clearly has been happening.
CHUCK TODD:
But are we starting to see, Jake, that the — are the Congressional Democrats more progressive than their electorate?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Probably in some respect. I mean, if you look at — I kind of agree that, with Sara here. I mean, there — Democrats are about to pass a three and a half trillion budget. When I started hearing these numbers a couple months ago, I didn’t believe it. Bernie Sanders had a, a, a large constituency of people who were willing to pass a $6-10 trillion budget. I mean, there’s absolutely no question that the progressives — and Mitch McConnell says this. And he’s right, that Bernie Sanders has won the ideological argument —
SARAH FAGEN:
Yeah.
JAKE SHERMAN:
— within the party.
SARA FAGEN:
He has.
JAKE SHERMAN:
The party has gone to the left on Capitol Hill. I, I, I completely agree with that. And I just think probably, the electorate is probably in the middle, but the members of Congress are not.
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead.
SARA FAGEN:
Well, and a bunch of those individuals are going to vote for Republicans in the next Congressional election —
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SARA FAGEN:
— because they don’t recognize their Democratic Party right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well a lot of it, that’s why we may see a lot of Donald Trump in ads, perhaps coming —
AMY WALTER:
100%.
CHUCK TODD:
— more from the left, perhaps, for some of those moderate Democrats. Anyway, I’ve got to leave it there. That’s all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We won the gold and the medal standing. How about that, Team U.S.A. Let’s make sure we note that. We’ll be back next week because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.