Meet the Press – December 12, 2021

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday: Tornado catastrophe.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

This will be, I believe, the deadliest tornado system to ever run through Kentucky.

CHUCK TODD:

100 or more feared dead, mostly in Kentucky.

KATE SNOW:

If you had to describe what’s happened to your town to people who don’t live here, what would you say?

KENTUCKY RESIDENT:

It’s gone.

CHUCK TODD:

Rare December tornadoes crash through six states.

9-1-1 OPERATOR:They’re working on trying to save some people that are trapped in the rubble.

CHUCK TODD:

An Amazon warehouse destroyed in Illinois.

KENTUCKY RESIDENT:

I had no idea the building looked that bad, and I’m just, I’m worried sick. I just want to know if he’s ok.

CHUCK TODD:

We’ll get the latest from Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear. Plus, Covid and mandates.

HEATHER ROBINSON:

A lot of the sickest patients that are on this floor won’t make it out of this floor.

CHUCK TODD:

With cases and deaths spiking again, are Democrats and the Biden administration doing enough to push for vaccine mandates?

DR. THOMAS ROHS:

Know this: everyone in North America is either going to get vaccinated or you’re going to get Covid.

CHUCK TODD:

Joining me is Republican Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas, who opposes mandates. Plus, Biden and Putin, Russia and Ukraine.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

Good to see you again.

CHUCK TODD:

President Biden says he’s warned Vladimir Putin against any invasion of Ukraine.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

There will be severe consequences, economic consequences, like none he’s ever seen or ever have been seen.

CHUCK TODD:

But how much is the U.S. willing to do to stop another Russian invasion? I’ll ask Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Executive Editor of The Recount, John Heilemann, Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe, Republican strategist Brendan Buck and Marianna Sotomayor of The Washington Post. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

And a good Sunday morning. We’re going to of course get to the spike on Covid cases, the battle over mandates, my interview with the secretary of state about Russia and Ukraine in a moment, but we’re going to begin with the terrible tornado damage in Kentucky and some neighboring states. A series of tornadoes, more typical in the Spring, very rare in December, erupted overnight on Friday, causing horrific damage and loss of life. All told, these tornadoes touched down in six states in the nation’s midsection. One tornado alone was said to be on the ground for an estimated record 200-plus miles, cutting a shocking path of destruction through several states. Most of that journey was in hardest-hit Kentucky. And the worst of the damage occurred in the Kentucky town of Mayfield, where a twister hit and destroyed a candle factory that was being used as shelter by scores of people. Dozens are feared dead there alone.

[BEGIN TAPE]

KYANNA PARSONS-PEREZ:

We did a — I think the lights went out. and then we did a rock rock rock, boom, and everything fell down on us.

BRANDON CLEMENT:

I’m looking at the trees and everything is just completely sawed off, there’s very little in the way of bark remaining and some of them. Buildings are completely flattened, cars have been picked up and thrown. You know right away you’re dealing with a violent tornado.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

At least six people were also killed in Edwardsville, Illinois, that’s just outside of St. Louis, Missouri, when an Amazon warehouse took a direct hit. The overall death toll is unclear at this point, but Kentucky’s governor Andy Beshear says as many as 100 are feared dead in his state alone. I’m going to talk to Governor Beshear in a moment, but first we’re joined by my colleague Kate Snow. She is reporting on the ground from the hardest hit area there, of Mayfield. Kate, the pictures are devastating. I imagine being there in person is even more impressionable.

KATE SNOW:

Yeah, Chuck, it’s almost indescribable, I can’t even put in words how devastated the city is. I have to tell you, I’ve covered probably more than a dozen tornadoes over my career and Chuck, I have never seen a town, a city, flattened like this, just block after block. You talked about the candle factory, I want to tell you about that. 110 people were working there over on the late shift on Friday night. It’s a 24 hour operation and this time of year, there are a lot of orders for candles. So, they were all inside that warehouse. Right now, there are still dozens of people missing. I just talked to a state trooper who told me they’re out there again today, trying to recover people, and reunite families hopefully, but they are fairly sure the death toll there at the candle factory will rise. At the same time, we’re starting to hear signs, even this morning already, of cleanup happening. I’m hearing , you know, the beeps of heavy equipment being brought in to start clearing things. The mayor told me that it’s only a matter of time, months, maybe years, they will be able to rebuild. This is a resilient community, it’s a very tight knit town, a city of about 10,000 people, they all know each other. They’re helping each other on this Sunday morning. And I also want to point out that this is Mayfield, but Chuck, this scene is repeated all across the state of Kentucky in smaller ways perhaps, but equally devastated. We’re talking about places over like Bowling Green overnight we learned there are even more deaths there. And it is Sunday, a lot of church services happening, even though churches here were destroyed, Chuck. They’re going to get together here, even if they just have an altar stand. And we heard of one church where literally it’s no walls, but just an alter, and they’re having services and asking for prayers this morning, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, Kate Snow on the ground for us in Mayfield. I know you’re going to have a lot more for us on the nightly news this evening. Thank you, Kate. Joining me now is Governor Beshear. Governor, welcome back to Meet the Press and I know it is an extraordinarily difficult time for you and your state. And let me just start with, look, we know this is going to be the worst tornado event ever recorded in the state’s history. Where do things stand right now? How many missing are there still?

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

Well, this has been absolutely devastating. We have entire towns flattened. My count, I know we’ve lost over 80 lives. I think it’s going to be over 100. It may be well over 100. It is so hard to describe. There’s not a camera lens big enough to show the path of absolute destruction. People have lost everything. We’re talking in the rescue effort of going door to door. There aren’t doors. It’s whether or not people are in the rubble. But so much help is coming, and we are so thankful for other communities in Kentucky and in other states rallying with us. And we greatly appreciate everybody’s prayers. And that’s what we need. At the moment, we’re hoping for miracles, whether it’s in that candle factory or other places. But, you know, just in my dad’s hometown of Dawson Springs, about 2,700 people, the unaccounted-for was about eight pages single spaced. It’s really rough region by region, but especially down in the Mayfield/Hopkins County/Dawson Springs area.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, a lot of times when there’s a bad tornado hit like this, you can count on some neighboring states to chip in. But this is such a wide swath. I mean, I am curious. How many more resources do you need? Do you need more folks to come in, whether it’s folks to turn the power on, clear debris? And, again, your neighboring states are also dealing with this. Do you need the National Guard? Do you need other states’ National Guard?

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

So this is what we believe will be the longest tornado in U.S. history on the ground consecutively, at least 227 miles. But 200 of those were in Kentucky. I talked to the governors of neighboring states. We’re all working to recover through this. We have a lot of people on the ground right now, especially in Mayfield. Actually, what we need from the surrounding communities is if you’re safe and you have power, stay home. We need to make sure that our roads are open for first responders, for heavy equipment, and not having people just coming to see what is human misery and great difficulty and devastation. There are ways to help though, whether that is giving blood or a new fund that we have set up that’s going to be state managed, a one fund that we can use to directly help the families of western Kentucky. And it’s going to start by grieving together, helping them with funeral expenses. That is the Team Western Kentucky Relief Fund. That’s TeamWKYReliefFund.ky.gov.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, considering the timing of these tornadoes, this isn’t spring. This is on the cusp of winter. I can only imagine if the area is suddenly experiencing an ice storm in the next couple of weeks. You know, are you going to be able to clear this debris in time to essentially prepare for what could be tough weather, maybe drains on the power? I mean, it just feels like the timing couldn’t be worse.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

Well, we have at least 56,000 homes without power, almost all in western Kentucky. It has gotten pretty cold. Now, we have opened our state parks and we are bringing in families. But the other thing we do in Kentucky is we look out for one another. We opened warming centers. We had 13 open. Only six are still open because those of us blessed enough to not be hit directly with this tornado take other people in, whether we know them or not. Chuck, we’re good people that look out for one another that have just gone through something incredibly difficult. But we are resilient, and we will rebuild.

CHUCK TODD:

I believe that, and I know that. Let me ask you this. Just before this happened, you had to declare a state of emergency when it came to health care workers. The western Kentucky medical facilities have all been near capacity thanks to Covid. Do you have the medical resources to take care of the injured?

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

Right now, we believe we do, though power is one of the challenges. But we’re working with that. Our hospitals outside of the area have all called. And even though we’re all stretched a little bit thin right now, we still have capacity in many areas, and they are sending aid and help. And then we are transporting patients. One of our challenges is we’re losing so many people in this, most of our morgues aren’t big enough. So our coroners from all over the state are coming in to help. But we’re going to make sure that everybody who needs medical assistance gets it. And I want to thank all those that are out there doing the work, whether it’s doing the rescue or the debris removal. We have National Guard on the scene. We have our transportation cabinet with their heavy equipment. We have our Division of Forestry. And then we have a whole lot of volunteers bringing their personal equipment to help us make it through. Because I will tell you, it doesn’t matter how big a piece of equipment was, if it was in the area, this storm picked it up, destroyed it, threw it hundreds of feet. And just we’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve never seen a war zone that looks like this.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, tornado warning systems – look, meteorologists every year are trying to get better, seeing if they can give people more time. Could you have a warning system in December? I mean, was the timing of it harder? Or is this so devastating, no warning system could have helped?

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

No, there were lots of warnings. And in fact, even at that factory, there was a warning for people to get to the right area. But this storm, it’s like nothing any of us have ever seen before, even in a movie or on TV. It is that devastating. I mean, homes totally gone and the people inside them totally gone, too. This is something so devastating. The warnings were there. I don’t fault anybody for that.

CHUCK TODD:

No, of course not. Governor Beshear, I can hear it in your voice. I know this has been so difficult. And I imagine being on the ground, it only makes it even harder to comprehend. Thanks for coming on and sharing some of the stories for our viewers.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:

Thank you. And thank you for everybody’s prayers. We’ll take as many as we can get.

CHUCK TODD:

You’ve got it. And, by the way, folks, if you would like to help the victims of these tornadoes, you heard the governor had some organizations. Here are some other organizations you can contribute to. You can also find them on our website, MeetthePress.com. Turning now to the Covid crisis, we’re looking at some grim new numbers. As of this morning, the U.S. is approaching the 50 million mark in Covid cases and we’re just shy of 800,000 deaths. Cases and deaths are spiking again. Some Republicans are working against vaccine and testing mandates, which appears to be catering to a growing group of anti-vaccine voters. And Democrats seem to be giving up, afraid to defend the mandates, even though they have proven to be scientifically highly effective. Joining me now is Republican Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas. He is a medical doctor, but he is opposed to the mandate. Senator Marshall, thank you for coming on and welcome to Meet the Press.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Thanks, Chuck. Glad to be here.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with this. If you have no mandate, what is your plan to get more people vaccinated? Because it appears vaccines are still our only way out of this pandemic.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Yeah, Chuck, you know, boosters, boosters, boosters. That’s what’s going to save lives right now. But just bear with me. I need to just stop and pause and honor my boyhood hero, Bob Dole, who passed away this week. One of my – just, great American heroes from the Greatest Generation. We want to stop and salute him. So, our plan is to be honest with Americans. Look, about 30% of Americans right now have chosen not to get the vaccine. But what the biggest impact would be right now is to get boosters into seniors. That’s what’s going to stop hospitalizations and stop deaths. If you’re a senior citizen and haven’t gotten your booster yet, shame on you. Please go do that. If you have underlying health care conditions, if you’re diabetic, if you’re overweight, please go get the booster because you’re going to get the virus and be exposed to it, I’ll guarantee it. And if you don’t have that booster, we know the vaccines kind of run out after about five to six months. Natural immunity would help, and even those with natural immunity may want to consider getting the booster as well. But I think being honest with America is the plan. We know that mandates don’t work. From a practical standpoint, mandates are going to cause an economic shutdown. It’s going to exacerbate inflation. It’s going to cause brownouts. It’s going to cause supply chain disruptions and national security issues. Think about this: half of the National Guard is not vaccinated yet. What would be happening in Kentucky right now if we shut down half of the National Guard? I support the vaccines, but not the mandates.

CHUCK TODD:

You said something interesting. You said, « If senior citizens haven’t gotten their booster, shame on you. » Is that your attitude for any unvaccinated person in the hospital right now? Because 80 percent of hospitalizations, at a minimum, right now in the northern tier where we’re hitting close to max, are the unvaccinated with Covid. Shame on them?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Look, I think I’ve been one of the leaders from the start, encouraging people to get the vaccine. I was leading the charge back in July of 2020, saying, « We’re going to have a vaccine. Let’s get it out the door. » In the summer of this year, I was encouraging people to get boosters. If the CDC could have pivoted sooner, we would have saved thousands of lives. I think being honest with people, the CDC needs to acknowledge natural immunity. Look, as a physician, I was never able to talk anybody into stopping smoking by a mandate or by trying to argue with them. It was by being honest and communicating with them. I would just encourage all those folks who have not gotten the vaccine yet to talk to their doctor about it. And by the way, let’s talk about eating healthy and exercising every day and getting seven hours of sleep, avoiding stress. Those are the things that we can all be doing to help minimize the impact of this virus.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, you brought up smoking. I know at our company here, if you’re a smoker, you have to pay more. If you don’t get vaccinated, should you have to pay for your own health care? Should taxpayers – and more importantly, is it a bizarre incentive to the unvaccinated to give them unemployment benefits?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

You know, wow, I just don’t know what to say except there’s not a one-size-fits-all solution. I think that problem will be best solved locally. So, if a local employer, you know, wants to make those types of decisions, I get it. I’m just against any type of federal mandates of any type, especially an unconstitutional federal vaccine mandate. Again, think from the practical standpoint of what that’s going to do to the economy, inflation. I rattled off all of those other issues —

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that, but Senator —

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

– it’s going to impact. So, look at the big picture. Look at the big picture.

CHUCK TODD:

Oh, I understand that. Well, look at the big picture of this pandemic. Everything you rattled off, that you said would be impacted by a mandate, is what we’re living through now. The only way to get past the supply chain problems, to get past Covid, get people vaccinated. The only way to get more workers to show up is to make it safer, to get more people vaccinated. Everything you describe here, all of our problems, are because we’re still in the pandemic and because people haven’t gotten vaccinated. How is trying to delay the end of this pandemic better for the economy?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Yeah, you know, Chuck, let’s look at the background information. Ninety-two percent of Americans have some level of immunity to this virus based upon the CDC website. So, let’s start there. And really, the messaging coming out of the White House has to acknowledge natural immunity and be honest with America. Look, based upon years of experience —

CHUCK TODD:

You think it’s better to get the virus than to get vaccines?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

– mandates don’t work. Mandates don’t work.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you this. You have talked about natural immunity. You’ve talked about natural immunity a lot. Would you advise somebody to get the virus rather than get the vaccine?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Of course not. But if you’ve had the virus, that needs to be acknowledged and then a decision made with the patient and the doctor deciding if they should get the booster or not. Maybe check their level of antibodies. Take into account what their healthcare situation is. A diabetic – type II diabetic that’s had the virus, I would check their level of antibodies and probably encourage them to get the booster. But a 19-year-old Navy SEAL who has a higher chance of getting pericarditis, a heart inflammation, than going to the hospital from the virus, I probably would have a different answer. So, you cannot have a one-size-fits-all recommendation from the federal government.

CHUCK TODD:

You brought up Bob Dole at the beginning. We’re going to have our own sort of tribute to him later in the show. But I’m curious of this, senator. Bob Dole conceded the election in 1996. The last president has not. What could the former president learn from Bob Dole?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Well, listen, I think that this is an issue of election integrity. And I think that’s what’s really important to Americans across the nation. We value the ballot and the ballot booth. We want election integrity. There’s a lot of controversy out there and I’m focused right now on making it easier to vote and harder to cheat. I think that’s the focus right now.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, i want to actually – Bob Dole, one of the last interviews he gave was in July to USA Today. He actually was asked about the former president and he said this, « He lost the election, and I regret that he did, but they did. He had Rudy Giuliani running all over the country claiming fraud. He never had one bit of fraud in all those lawsuits he filed and statements he made. I’m a Trumper. I’m sort of Trumped out, though. » You voted – you stood with those that didn’t want to certify the election. Do you regret that now, considering all the crazy, cockamamie things that Mark Meadows and others were doing?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Look, I’m always going to stand up for election integrity. I want to make sure that every state obeys their own laws and obeys their own constitution, especially in a time of crisis. So, that’s what’s at risk for me right now is maintaining the integrity of that election. And I’m going to do everything I can going forward to make sure that those elections have even more safety valves in it, that there’s higher levels of integrity. Americans value the sanctity of that ballot booth.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you believe you were elected fair and square in 2020?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

You know, absolutely I do. I think Kansas has some of the tightest election laws in the land. We went back and looked at that to make sure that it was a safe and fair election. So proud of our secretary of state, so proud of our county clerks and those people that volunteer, checking the IDs to make sure that every person got one vote. Just really proud of how Kansas could do it. Other states can look and see how Kansas does it.

CHUCK TODD:

And do you believe that Joe Biden was elected fair and square?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

You know, Joe Biden was sworn into office. I called him Mr. President since the day he was —

CHUCK TODD:

You didn’t answer the question.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

– sworn in. I still remain concerned about election – I still remain concerned about election integrity. I think that we need to go back and look at what — did the states obey their own laws? Did they obey their own constitution?

CHUCK TODD:

The New York Times says a bunch of senators were briefed on this supposed PowerPoint and other ideas that the former White House chief of staff was circulating. Were you briefed by some of these things before January 6, some of these arguments about the Chinese controlling 28 states and things like that?

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

You know, not at all. I never – I’ve heard that story. I don’t know if there’s any truth to that at all. So, no, I haven’t.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Senator Roger Marshall, Republican from Kansas, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL:

Thank you, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, with tens of thousands of Russian troops massed on Ukraine’s border, is there anything the U.S. can do to stop Vladimir Putin from invading? I’ll ask the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. It is no exaggeration to say it was a busy week of diplomacy for President Biden. On Tuesday, he met by video with Vladimir Putin and says he made clear to the Russian leader that there would be devastating economic consequences if Russia were to invade Ukraine. On Wednesday, the president spoke to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and tried to assure him of U.S. support as Russian troops mass at Ukraine’s border. But how much leverage does the U.S. really have if Putin is determined to invade? Joining me now is the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken. Secretary Blinken, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Thanks, Chuck. Good to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to start with what President Biden said he told Vladimir Putin. He said that there would be “economic consequences like none he’s ever seen or ever have been seen.” I want to put up this graphic of all the different ways we have tried to confront Russian aggression and Putin aggression since 2014: ejection from the G8, multiple sanctions, import restrictions, expulsion of diplomats, asset seizures, cyber crime indictments, more military to aid to Ukraine. None of it, Mr. Secretary, has curtailed Putin’s behavior. Why do you think these threats will do it?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, first of all, Chuck, we don’t know that it hasn’t curtailed his behavior because he might well have gone further. Back in 2014, he seized Crimea. He invaded eastern Ukraine. Might have gone even further than that had there not been a resolute response. But right now, what the president made very clear to President Putin, what I’ve made very clear to Foreign Minister Lavrov, my counterpart, is that we are looking at and we are prepared to take the kinds of steps we’ve refrained from taking in the past that would have massive consequences for Russia. In fact, I’m here in Liverpool with the G7 countries. They are equally resolute in their determination to stand against Russian aggression, to ideally deter it, prevent it. And we’ve made clear as well that there would be massive consequences if Russia commits renewed acts of aggression against Ukraine.

CHUCK TODD:

Already though since the president warned Vladimir Putin, Russia’s only escalated its offensive. He’s escalated his rhetoric. We have reports that he’s been sending even more military reinforcements to the border. Is he not listening?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

We’ll see in the days and weeks ahead. Look, the president, Chuck, has made clear to President Putin on two occasions, in Geneva when they met some months ago and then just this week in the video conference that I took part in, that, look, our strong preference would be for a more stable, predictable relationship with Russia. But if Russia continues to take reckless and aggressive actions, we will respond. And not only us; partners and allies around the world. That’s why I was at NATO just a week ago. That’s why I’m here at the G7 meeting. And I think what people need to understand is that Ukraine is important and we are resolute in our commitment to its sovereignty, its territorial integrity. But there is something even bigger at stake here, and it’s the basic rules of the road of the international system, rules that say that one country can’t change the borders of another by force, one country can’t dictate to another country its choices, its decisions, and its foreign policy, with whom it will associate. One country can’t exert a sphere of influence over others. That’s what Russia is purporting to assert. And if we let that go with impunity, then the entire system that provides for stability, prevents war from breaking out is in danger. That’s why this is so important. That’s why the president’s been very clear with President Putin.

CHUCK TODD:

Why hasn’t the action of Russia amassing troops and terrorizing Ukraine right now been a trigger for any punishment?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, it’s been a trigger for action. It’s been a trigger for us bringing together allies and partners around the world, starting in Europe with our closest partners, NATO, again, where I was just a couple weeks ago, bringing people together together to make very clear not only the deep shared concern but the fact that we are prepared together in a coordinated way to take very strong action if Mr. Putin continues his aggression against Ukraine. So we now need to see whether he’s not only received the message but responds to it. And there is another way forward. That’s something else the president suggested to President Putin—and I’ve done the same with my Russian counterpart and others, and that is diplomacy. Russia and Ukraine agreed many years ago to something called the Minsk Agreements, a way of defusing the crisis in eastern Ukraine, giving Ukraine its border back. And what we’d like to see now is actually Russia implementing its commitments under that agreement. We’re going to test that proposition together with our European allies and partners and see how Russia responds.

CHUCK TODD:

But the fact that he’s able to amass troops at the border, get a video conference — and now, by the way, Vladimir Putin wants a face-to-face meeting. I’m curious. Is that at all on the table?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Look, the video conference is important because as much as I can do with my counterpart, as much as other colleagues in the government can do with theirs, when it comes to Russia, President Putin’s the one person that really counts. And it’s very important for President Biden to speak directly, clearly to him so that he understands from the leader of the United States exactly what he risks if he pursues aggression with Ukraine.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay. What about – what would it take for you to agree, for President Biden to agree to a in-person face-to-face with Vladimir Putin? Does he have to pull his troops back from the border before that happens?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

What we are looking to see from Russia, and, again, not just us but allies and partners in Europe, are looking – we’re looking to see de-escalation. We’re looking to see Russia pull back forces from the border. And we’re looking to see Russia engage in good faith in diplomacy and diplomatic dialogue with the Europeans, with Ukraine to resolve the conflict in eastern Ukraine and to give Ukraine its borders back. That’s what we’re looking to see.

CHUCK TODD:

I don’t mean to sound cynical here, but we’ve heard that rhetoric for seven years through three administrations, and it just – Putin’s behavior just hasn’t changed.

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, what we’ve seen in recent weeks, in recent months, is concerning signs of an accumulation of forces on the border, plans to commit renewed aggression against Ukraine, which is exactly why we brought countries around the world but starting in Europe together to make it very clear that there’ll be very severe consequences for that. President Putin has to make his calculations. He has to decide ultimately what’s in Russia’s interest. He’ll make those calculations. We’ve been very clear about what will follow if he renews his aggression on Ukraine.

CHUCK TODD:

If Germany were more open to essentially shutting down the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, do you think Vladimir Putin would pay more attention? Does he think Europe basically is keeping the U.S. from doing more?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, that pipeline, Chuck, as you know, doesn’t have any gas flowing through it right now. And in fact, it’s a source of leverage on Russia because to the extent President Putin wants to see gas flowing through that pipeline, if and when it becomes operational, it’s very unlikely or hard to see that happening if Russia has renewed its aggression on Ukraine, if it takes renewed action. So I think President Putin has to factor that in too, as he’s thinking about what he’s going to do next.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to go back though. Are European allies the ones more hesitant at stronger action against Russia than what you and President Biden would like to do?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, look. What I can tell you is this. I’m here at the G7, the meeting of the world’s largest economies, including many European partners. We just put out a statement in the name of all of our countries that warns of massive consequences if Russia commits acts of aggression against Ukraine. I was at NATO, as I said. I found all of our allies very resolute, both in their deep concern about what Russia may be doing and may be planning, as well as their determination to take strong, coordinated steps if Russia does act aggressively. That’s the best way to deter Russia. Now, there are other steps that we’ve been taking as well. We’ve been continuing to shore up Ukraine’s defenses so that it can better defend itself if Russia commits acts of aggression. And we’re also looking at what NATO can do, if necessary, to better defend itself. But at the end of the day, Chuck, what is far preferable to all of this is diplomacy, and dialogue, and de-escalation. And if Russia moves in that direction, then we can avoid having another crisis, we can avoid the potential for conflict, and we can move things to a better path.

CHUCK TODD:

You —

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

That’s strongly, I think, in our interest. It’s strongly in Russia’s interest.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Secretary Antony Blinken, appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration’s perspective.

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Thanks for having me, Chuck. Good to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

Moments after we finished speaking, I followed up with him a third time about the Putin ask, right, Secretary Blinken suggested that with Russian troops currently massed on Ukraine’s border, a face-to-face Biden-Putin meeting while not off the table, seems pretty unlikely. When we come back, President Biden led an international « Summit for Democracy » this past week. But what if it’s our democracy that’s the one that’s in trouble? The panel is next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. The panel is here. Marianna Sotomayor, Congressional reporter for the Washington Post; John Heilemann, executive editor of The Recount, and yes, of The Circus, of course; Brendan Buck, Republican strategist and former advisor to House Speakers Paul Ryan and John Boehner; and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe. Look, it was The Atlantic this week, Marianna, that sort of put the democracy issue, January 6th, front and center. It’s clear they’re doing a year-ender. And then we had the Summit for Democracy. And it has really been a head-scratcher, the Summit for Democracy, because what other democracy has their last leader not conceding the election?

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR:

Right. It’s been very difficult, even for Biden, who ran on making sure that democracy can be saved, not just in the U.S., but also abroad. And it’s difficult to make that argument for him because we’ve had January 6th. And you know, we’re coming up on the one-year anniversary. It is so hard to believe it’s right around the corner. And you still, on Capitol Hill, have many Republicans denying that that was an insurrection. They don’t like calling these people insurrectionists. And you have Democrats who have sworn off actually working with Republicans who voted against certifying the election. So, it is very tense, still, on Capitol Hill.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to read what Bart Gellman wrote in that cover story for The Atlantic. Some might say this is hyperbolic, but, John Heilemann, I’m curious if you think it is. The headline is, « Trump’s Next Coup has Already Begun.” “Trump and his party have convinced a dauntingly large number of Americans that the essential workings of democracy are corrupt, that made-up claims of fraud are true, that only cheating can thwart the victory at their polls, that tyranny has usurped their government, and that violence is a legitimate response. » Hyperbolic or fact?

JOHN HEILEMANN:

Fact, I think. And I think the strength of this Gellman piece is it lays out, first of all, the extraordinary reality that there’s this research that shows that something like at least 8%, and maybe as many as 12%, of the American people now say that Joe Biden was illegitimate and that violence is an appropriate tool to removing him and restoring Donald Trump. That’s somewhere between 20 million and 30 million people. That’s a mass movement in America in favor of political violence, which is a new thing. We’ve had political violence in America before. Lynching, many things over the course of time that African Americans suffered from. But this is 30 million people right now who are ready to take up arms. You put that together with what the president – former president I should say – and his allies are doing in the political realm, state houses, state legislatures, and the party apparatus to be able to engineer a situation where they are in a stronger position to pull off a coup in 2024 than they were in 2020? That’s not hyperbolic at all. Those are all facts.

CHUCK TODD:

You are playing producer here. In fact, I have a scroll here of everybody the former president, Brendan, has endorsed that has a role in certifying elections. I’ve not included members of Congress in here. He’s gotten involved in state senate races, state house races. And there is just one litmus test, just one. This feels as if we’re entering a place that is going to get darker and darker if the election is less than 1% on any level.

BRENDAN BUCK:

Yeah, I’m not too concerned about voting laws in Georgia and Texas. I know some people may disagree with that. What really concerns me is people like Jody Hice, who is a Freedom Caucus member in the House, who is running for secretary of state in Georgia. Now, the only reason he is running for secretary of state in Georgia is he wants to take out Brad Raffensperger, who is the Georgia secretary of state who pushed back on all of Trump’s claims and said that the election was not stolen there. Now, if we have people all across the country who are put in the position where they will not confirm or certify an election result, that’s the nightmare scenario that I’m worried about. And it’s very clear that that’s what they are trying to do all across the country. And then you take it a step further, the real nightmare scenario is a GOP Congress in the House that won’t certify a democratic election down the road. But I think the things that people talk about the most right now, the voting laws, those are not actually the real big concerns.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Kimberly, though, it was in the 1850s, ’60s, and ’70s, you’d have instances where you’d have multiple people claiming the governorship. And, yes, we had alternative – this is not something that we’re making up. This has happened before and it feels like they’re copying the playbook.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Yeah, it has happened before. And I point to other violence that’s happened before. A civil war happened before, so there is precedent for a lot of this. And that’s exactly why people should be so concerned. And what you have – one thing, I do disagree that the voting measures that are being passed in these states are not problematic. But what you have that’s even worse is that you have an entire party– it’s no longer just about Donald Trump. It’s a party that’s about adopting his tactic, which is you deny the results of the last election or else you move forward with efforts to subvert democracy or else. There is no place – I mean, just knowing that there’s no place in the Republican Party for a Charlie Baker, knowing that there’s no place in the Republican Party. These are the people that are being driven out. And this is fealty not just to Trump, but to an idea of being anti-democracy. You have to put winning above even that.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, you bring up Peter Meijer, Marianna, who is a member of Congress. He’s from Michigan. He voted for impeachment. His own sister believes all of Trump’s lies. And here’s what he told Tim Alberta, « While grieving his sister’s obsession with conspiracy theories, he has to work alongside the very people, like fellow freshman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who are pushing those lies. ‘They make folks like my sister think they’re on her team,’ Meijer says, ‘and that’s what pisses me off. They aren’t the ones paying the price when the consequences come due. Paul Gosar wasn’t shot on January 6th; Ashli Babbitt was.' »

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR:

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting to see now, are people like the congressman, like-minded people, there are very few of them, going to start pushing leadership to denounce Marjorie Taylor Greene and all of those in that MAGA squad a little bit more? There is frustration boiling up because leadership hasn’t really dealt with them. Behind the scenes, McCarthy has talked with them, but he’s also talked, for example, with Nancy Mace when she and Marjorie Taylor Greene were getting at it on Twitter. And people like the congressman were like, « Well, why are you also punishing her instead of Greene –« 

CHUCK TODD:

Because she’s turned it into martyrdom.

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR:

« — who continues to attack everyone? »

BRENDAN BUCK:

Peter Meijer stands out because he’s willing to say the truth. And he’s new. And I think what he’s going to learn is the reason that so many elected GOP officials don’t push back, it’s not because there’s some master plan. It’s not because Donald Trump told them not to. It’s because of their constituents. Their constituents believe this. And they don’t want to get yelled at by their constituents. And until that changes, you’re not going to see anything change. Roger Marshall provided an answer that he knows his constituents won’t yell at him about about who won the last election. And they’ve all settled on that. That’s what this all comes down to. And until we realize that it’s the people who believe this stuff, it’s not going to change.

JOHN HEILEMANN:

Except for the fact that their constituents are driven by the combination of Donald Trump, who still has this massive influence, and the echo chamber of Fox News and Newsmax and OANN that have been broadcasting this propaganda. It’s a feedback cycle, right? The constituents aren’t coming up with these ideas on their own. And I’ll just say, Chuck, I did an interview with Bannon in October of 2020. And he said there were going to be knife fights in the counting rooms, knife fights in the counting rooms. They lost those knife fights in 2020. All of this is about being able to control those counting rooms and win those knife fights in 2024.

CHUCK TODD:

Steve Bannon does not believe in democracy.

JOHN HEILEMANN:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

That is pretty clear to me.

JOHN HEILEMANN:

No, no, no.

CHUCK TODD:

As we go to break, we felt we could not let this week go past without acknowledging the passing of Bob Dole, especially the relationship he had with this show. His death was announced just moments after we went off the air last Sunday. At the National Cathedral in Washington on Friday, official Washington paid tribute to the war hero, the vice presidential and presidential candidate, who died at the age of 98. Bob Dole once had the record for most Meet The Press appearances. He appeared on 63 times. He’s now second only to the late Senator John McCain. And we thought we’d put together clips of Dole’s Meet The Press appearances. We begin in 1972, when President Nixon was running for re-election and Dole headed the Republican National Committee.

[BEGIN TAPE]

BOB DOLE:

The President starts off, of course, in a very strong position. We occupy the White House. He has a positive record. He has a positive program.

ROGER MUDD:

In every question you’re asked about 88 you do not close the door at all. In fact, it’s about 10, 20 feet wide, isn’t it?

BOB DOLE:

Well, I don’t know how large the door is. The door is certainly ajar.

TIM RUSSERT:

You want to be president.

BOB DOLE:

I’ve thought about it a lot, yes.

TIM RUSSERT:

Why?

BOB DOLE:

Well, I really believe that I have the experience. I think I have provided leadership over the years.

TIM RUSSERT:

On this program have you ever told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

BOB DOLE:

Probably not.

CHUCK TODD:

What’s your answer when somebody says the Senate’s broken, how do you fix it

BOB DOLE:

Well the Senate’s may not be broken but it’s badly bent.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Data Download time and a look at how this winter season is shaping up to look and feel a lot more like the pre-pandemic holiday season of 2019 than last year. Let’s look first at just spending on holiday shopping. As you can see here, it was up. Just under $1,000 in 2019. We’re just over $1,000 in 2021. Obviously, we had the pandemic era 2020 dip there. Now, look at who are Americans buying gifts for. Here’s what’s interesting, not much change here. Family, obviously, number one. Friends here, slight dip. This may not be surprising if you think about it. Fewer co-workers, slight dip. Why? Well, we worked from home. Maybe we’re not as close to our co-workers as we once were. But here’s another way that things look like the pre-pandemic era. In-person dining, basically we’re now just down 8% compared to sort of the pre-pandemic levels here. Look at where we were a year ago, down 62%. This is easily the most normafying statistic we have when it comes to this holiday season. So, all right, we’ll see if this continues or if Delta beats us up again. When we come back, wages are up, the stock market is strong, weekly jobless claims just hit a 50-year low. So, why are people so unhappy with this economy? That’s next.

CHUCK TODD:

And we are back. Kimberly, it seems as if there’s nothing the White House can do to improve their political standing these days. It does feel like every week there’s another poll and it’s a new bottom, it’s a new this. And some of it is out of their control. Mark Murray and I were having a discussion. His two big promises were to get Covid behind us and to get rid of Donald Trump. Covid’s not behind us and Donald Trump’s still lurking. It’s not his fault, but is that why we’re in this no-man’s land here for him?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

It’s a convergence of a lot of things. You have this pandemic that we can’t get behind. You still have people who are struggling economically. Joe Biden also campaigned on a big, broad agenda of protecting civil rights and getting people – helping to get people back on their feet after this, these big, broad packages. But even after these packages have passed, there is still this constant threat to democracy that we keep talking about. The Democrats have failed to pass any measure to protect and bolster up our election system. So, that has people uneasy. Is it all Joe Biden’s fault? Of course not. Most of it isn’t. You have Republicans who are lock solid against him and won’t vote for anything, no matter how many times Joe Manchin says he wants bipartisanship. So, it’s about where do you assign that blame, who is against every measure, including vaccine mandates that could get us past this pandemic. Is that Joe Biden? Where does the blame actually lie?

BRENDAN BUCK:

So, I talked to Republicans on the Hill and they are ecstatic about the status of the Build Back Better Act. And they think they win either way. Either Democrats fail and they have nothing to run on, but they also have seen in their polling that people associate inflation with runaway Washington spending. And so, they think if they pass this, it’s only going to make things worse for Democrats. And even if they do pass it, what Democrats are working on right now does not answer the question that most people are concerned about. Obviously, they’re concerned about inflation and gas prices. You look at polling and the top issues that people are concerned about, all of the issues on Build Back Better rank nowhere near the top of that. And so, they win either way. That’s why they’re sitting back and just waiting to see what happens.

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR:

And you know, vulnerable House Democrats, the ones who are the front-liners representing those swing districts know that. Privately, they know that. They know that the number one thing on people’s minds is the economy and inflation. So, they’re already starting to push leadership on what is the floor going to look like next year? If we have to pass messaging bills, they better be on the economy. They better be addressing the supply chain. They better be addressing jobs because that’ll give us even more than maybe Build Back Better to say, « We are trying to deliver for you guys. » They need that ammunition.

JOHN HEILEMANN:

Yeah, we have watched a lot of presidents over time and we know that there are things that they get more credit for when they’re good than they deserve and more blame for than they deserve when they’re bad. Those two things, one, is it turns out the economy’s way better than it was a year ago. There’s no metric, other than inflation, by which the economy is not stronger than it was a year ago. And yet, inflation has now crowded that out. 6.8% on the CPI last Friday. You see —

CHUCK TODD:

Look at this unemployment rate, right? Look at the other things and you’re like, « Wow. »

JOHN HEILEMANN:

The unemployment, the jobless rates. And the Biden Administration talks about it all day long, but you know, I drive down through Times Square and the thing coming out on Friday says, « Highest Inflation Since 1982. » People in the country are worried about it, and they are right to be worried about it. Covid, the unending pandemic. Is omicron Joe Biden’s fault? It is not. But do people feel like we’re never going to get out of this hole? There are going to be more variants? It’s going to go on forever? And it really puts them in that difficult position. They can try to do things on the supply chain. They can try to talk up the jobless claims going way down, but those two facts are weighing so heavily on so many people, it is like they’re a little stuck because the macro is weighing on them so heavily.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Kimberly, you brought up something about some of these other issues, voting rights and all this stuff. And it struck me, I think he’s the first president since H.W. Bush to not have a devoted political base. And that is hurting him right now, which is why his numbers don’t have a higher floor than, say, Barack Obama did or Donald Trump did.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Yes. And those who make up the different segments that make up his base all are looking for things beyond the pandemic –

CHUCK TODD:

Right –

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

– and one of them is voting rights. I have been saying for a long time that that should have been the first order of business and everything else can come later. You can pass Build Back Better, you can pass infrastructure. That’s like putting a nice, shiny coat of paint on a house while Republicans are lobbying fire bombs at it. You have to protect democracy and shore that up. Do you know who came out and voted in a pandemic in record numbers? Black folks in the south. And they are watching this and saying, « Absolutely nothing has changed. All the promises that you gave us have not been fulfilled yet. » And that’s a big problem for Democrats.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, I do think sort of too many people have too many asks of him and he can’t really find that unifying thing. That’s all we have for today. Thank you for watching and please keep these folks in the tornado zone in your thoughts today. In fact, remember to check our website, MeetThePress.com, for places to contribute. We’ll be back next week because, if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet The Press.