Meet the Press – April 11, 2021
CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, America and the world. My exclusive interview with Secretary of State Tony Blinken. On fighting Covid —
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We’re going to be the world leader on helping to make sure that the entire world gets vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
— on defending Taiwan from China —
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:It would be a serious mistake for anyone to try to change the existing status quo.
CHUCK TODD:
— and on Russia’s ambitions in Ukraine.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
If Russia acts recklessly or aggressively, there will be costs. There will be consequences.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus: A divided country. On guns safety laws —
PRES. JOE BIDEN
This is an epidemic, for god’s sake and it has to stop.
SEN. STEVE DAINES:
It’s not going to make us any safer. It just infringes on our Second Amendment rights.
CHUCK TODD:
— on Georgia’s new restrictive voting laws and MLB pulling its All Star game.
MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS:
This is what happens when you pass laws that disenfranchise people.
GOV. BRIAN KEMP:
They folded like a wet dish rag to the cancel culture.
CHUCK TODD:
We even disagree on things we agree on, like rebuilding America.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
We need to do what we need to do, but we also have to define infrastructure more broadly than roads and mass transit.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
This is not an infrastructure bill. If you think this is an infrastructure bill you probably better stay away from sharp objects.
CHUCK TODD:
This morning, I’ll talk to Republican Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas, who is being attacked by conservatives for not supporting a ban on medical care for transgender youth.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
I signed many bills that would be looked at as very conservative, but this is one that crosses the line.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News chief White House correspondent Peter Alexander, Helene Cooper, Pentagon correspondent for The New York Times, Ashley Parker, White House bureau chief for The Washington Post and PBS NewsHour senior national correspondent, Amna Nawaz. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. The writer David French once said, right here on Meet the Press, that Americans are so dug in politically that, « if you are 80% my friend, you’re 100% my enemy. » Today, the personal has become political. In just the past few days, liberals cheered Major League Baseball’s decision to move its All-Star Game out of Georgia because of the state’s new, more restrictive voting laws, while conservatives have called for boycotting baseball, Coca-Cola, and Delta, for opposing those measures. Where you stand on vaccine passports and masks has become a marker for whom you stand with politically. Washington is even arguing over the definition of the word « infrastructure. » It’s a debate with a $4 billion price tag, and now our differences no longer stop at the water’s edge. We’re polarized, left versus right, on immigration, on how to confront China, on whether Russia interfered in the 2016 and 2020 elections, and so much more. Joe Biden won the presidential election promising to bring us together, and the person who has worked most closely with him over the years on foreign policy is Tony Blinken. He’s Mr. Biden’s Secretary of State, and Secretary Blinken joins me now. Mr. Secretary, welcome to Meet the Press.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks, Chuck. Great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I get to all of the various challenges you’re facing in this job, I want to start with Covid and the issue of vaccinating the world. We’re miles ahead of most countries. There’s — vaccine inequity is growing. What is the U.S. responsibility globally, in your view, when it comes to vaccinations?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, I think we have a significant responsibility and we’re going to be the world leader on helping to make sure that the entire world gets vaccinated. And here’s why: unless and until the vast majority of people in the world are vaccinated, it’s still going to be a problem for us. Because as long as the virus is replicating somewhere, it could be mutating, and then it could be coming back to hit us. But, similarly, the world has a very strong interest in making sure that we’re vaccinated because the same thing applies. If the vaccine — if the virus is replicating here and mutating here, that’s going to be a problem for the rest of the world. So we’ve taken a leadership role already, on day one. We rejoined the World Health Organization. We are the largest contributor in the world to COVAX. This is the facility, the international facility, to make vaccines more available, especially to low- and middle-income countries. We’ve worked a very important arrangement with India, with Japan, and Australia, the so-called « Quad Countries, » to increase vaccine production around the world. And we’ve made some loans to our nearest neighbors, Mexico and Canada. As we get more comfortable with where we are in vaccinating every American, we are then looking at what we can do, what more we can do around the world.
CHUCK TODD:
You recently named Gail Smith, a long-time State Department veteran, she’s going to be —
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
That’s right.
CHUCK TODD:
— the global coordinator here. You know, the organization that she ran, in between her stints in government, actually has called on the United States to start distributing 5% of our vaccine supply once we hit 20% vaccinated. Well, that has happened. Is that going to be U.S. policy? It was Gail Smith’s organization’s idea. Is that going to be U.S. policy?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, Gail is a terrific leader. As you know, she was instrumental, as well, in dealing with Ebola some years ago and exerting American leadership to deal with that. What we’re doing right now, Chuck, is, again, as we’re getting more comfortable with our ability to vaccinate every American, we’re putting in place a framework for how we will do more around the world to share vaccines with others. So stay tuned for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. But what — I say this, what is « soon »? I mean, I look at — look at our hemisphere. You talked about loaning to Mexico and Canada. Brazil is an outbreak that’s out of control. It looks like what we looked like four months ago. Is this an emergency enough that you think — and, look, the Brazil variants show up in this country faster than, for instance, a variant might show up from Asia or Europe. What do you view as our Western Hemisphere responsibility here?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Look, our first responsibility is to the American people, and the president’s been very clear about that. But that’s also a benefit to the world. Because, again, we have to make sure that people are vaccinated in the United States. That’s going to have an impact on whether the virus continues to replicate and mutate in other places around the world. But as we’re doing that, as we’re getting to that point where we’re confident that every American can be vaccinated, we will be leaning in to doing more around the world.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s a very vague deadline. You say, « As we” — there are a lot of people who say we’re there now. We have contracts for doses for more, more people than we have in our population. So what is soon? Is soon weeks?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Look, the experts are looking at that. We have to keep a few things in mind. We have to keep in mind that we’re going to have a need, and hopefully soon, to be able to vaccine teenagers, ultimately vaccinate children. We also have to keep in mind the possibility that people will need booster shots. These are things we don’t know for sure yet. So all of that has to get factored in. It is being factored in, but I’m confident that we’re getting very confident about our ability to vaccinate every American, and, again, as we do that, we’ll be putting in place a framework to do more around the world. I think when all is said and done, you will see the United States as the leading country around the world in making sure that everyone has access to vaccines.
CHUCK TODD:
Where does the U.S. stand on the idea that, coming from countries like India and South Africa, that say, you know what, intellectual property claims on anything pandemic-related, in particular vaccines, should be waived right now. Where does the U.S. stand on that?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So I’ll, I’ll defer to some of my colleagues. We’re looking at all of these questions, but, you know, there are different ways of doing this. And one of the most important things that we have is this COVAX facility, that brings countries around the world together. We are the largest contributor to that. That, in and of itself, I think, is going to have a dramatic ability — on our ability to make sure that more people around the world have access to vaccines. That’s what this is all about. It’s making sure that access to vaccines increases and we’re covering as many people as possible around the world.
CHUCK TODD:
What is our priority when it comes to deciding where we choose to have vaccine diplomacy? Do we put it all to COVAX essentially, and let them make those decisions or are we going to favor allies first?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Look, I think you’re going to see a combination of things. COVAX is vitally important, but there are efforts that we will undertake country to country. And, as I said, we’ve already done that in the case of our two nearest neighbors, that obviously has, Canada and Mexico, where we loaned vaccines to both. That obviously has immediate security and health implications for the United States. You’re going to see a combination of things. The ultimate question that we have to — that we’re grappling with is, « How can we be most effective in increasing access around the world? » That’s what we’re focused on.
CHUCK TODD:
The origins of Covid. The WHO initial report settled nothing. Let me ask you this: Do you think China does know this answer and they’re withholding it?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Very good question. I think China — here’s what I think China knows. I think China knows that in the early stages of Covid, it didn’t do what it needed to do, which was to, in real time, give access to international experts, in real time to share information, in real time to provide real transparency. And one result of that failure is that the vaccine — the virus, excuse me, got out of hand faster and with, I think, much more egregious results than it might otherwise. But this speaks to what we have to do now, Chuck. And this speaks to what China and other countries have to do now. As we’re dealing with Covid-19, we also have to put in place a stronger global health security system to make sure that this doesn’t happen again, or, if it does happen again, we’re able to, to mitigate it, to get ahead of it. And that means making a real commitment to transparency, to information sharing, to access for experts. It means strengthening the World Health Organization, and reforming it so it can do that. And China has to play a part in that.
CHUCK TODD:
Do we have to get to — are we going to guarantee to the world that we’re going to get to the bottom of how this originated?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, I think we have to. Because we need to do that precisely so we fully understand what happened, in order to have the best shot possible preventing it from happening again. That’s why we need to get to the bottom of this.
CHUCK TODD:
Are we prepared to defend Taiwan militarily?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So, Chuck, what we’ve seen, and what is of real concern to us, is increasingly aggressive actions by the government in Beijing directed at Taiwan, raising tensions in the Straits. And we have a commitment to Taiwan under the Taiwan Relations Act, a bipartisan commitment that’s existed for many, many years, to make sure that Taiwan has the ability to defend itself, and to make sure that we’re sustaining peace and security in the Western Pacific. We stand behind those commitments. And all I can tell you is it would be a serious mistake for anyone to try to change the existing status quo by force.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. So it does sound like you’re saying that, look, we have commitments. And if China does try something in Taiwan, we will militarily respond?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
I’m not going to get into hypotheticals. All I can tell you is we have a serious commitment to Taiwan being able to defend itself. We have a serious commitment to peace and security in the Western Pacific. And in that context, it would be a serious mistake for anyone to try to change that status quo by force.
CHUCK TODD:
Why — do you understand, if China looks at what our reaction was to Crimea and Russia, and think, think those commitments are not as rock-solid as you just outlined them as?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, I don’t think that’s, I don’t think that’s true. In the case of Crimea, in the case of the Donbas, the United States back then led a very significant international effort to impose real costs and sanctions on Russia for its aggression in Crimea, in the Donbas. We’ve —
CHUCK TODD:
How’s that worked out? In fairness, sir?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, — so what we don’t —
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, it hasn’t worked out very well.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
What we don’t know is, would — has this deterred Russia from doing even more? And as we speak right now, I have to tell you I have real concerns about Russia’s actions on the borders of Ukraine. There are more Russian forces massed on those borders than at any time since 2014 when Russia first invaded. That’s why we’re in very close contact, in close coordination, with our allies and partners in Europe. All of us share that concern. And President Biden’s been very clear about this. If Russia acts recklessly, or aggressively, there will be costs, there will be consequences. He’s equally clear-eyed about the proposition that, when it comes to Russia, there are areas where our interests align, or certainly overlap, and we have an interest in working together. For example, on arms control, as we did in extending the START Agreement. So the question is, « Is Russia going to continue to act aggressively and recklessly? » If it does, the president’s been clear, there’ll be costs, there’ll be consequences.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Secretary, what you just outlined on Russia sounds like the exact same policy the Obama-Biden administration had towards Russia on this. That was — that has not positioned Russia to be better actors. That didn’t — that policy, arguably, didn’t work. We’re not saying that Trump’s policy worked either. What do you say to that?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, I say, first of all, we can’t go, we can’t go back to four years ago, or six years ago, or eight years ago. Pick your, pick your year. We have to deal with the world as it is now and as we anticipate it will be. What I can tell you is this: the president, before he was elected, made clear that, again, when it comes to Russia’s actions, there’ll be costs and consequences if it acts recklessly and aggressively and you could hold him to that word.
CHUCK TODD:
You said during — I believe it was during your confirmation hearing. You said that China’s treatment of the Uyghurs was, quote, « an effort to commit genocide. » And I guess I’ve got to ask it this way: How do you justify doing business with China or any country that you believe is committing genocide?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
When it comes to what we’re seeing from the government in Beijing, including with regard to the Uyghurs and the actions it’s taken in Xinjiang, yes, I think that’s, that’s exactly the right description. And we need to be able to do a few things. We need to be able to bring the world together in speaking with one voice in condemning what has taken place and what continues to take place. We need to take actually concrete actions to make sure, for example, that none of our companies are providing China with things that they can use to repress populations, including the Uyghur population. We need to be looking at products that are made in that part of China to make sure that they’re not, they’re not coming here. But we also have to make sure that we are dealing with all of our interests. And what is the best way to effectively advance our interests and our values? And when it comes to China, we have to be able to deal with China on areas where those interests are implicated and require working with China, even as we stand resolutely against egregious violations of human rights or in this case, acts of genocide.
CHUCK TODD:
Some people think a proper punishment for their human rights record is to — not to participate in the 2022 Winter Olympics. Is that on the table among Western allies or not?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, we’re not there yet. This is, this is a year or so before the Olympics. We’re not focused on a, on a boycott. What we are focused on is talking, consulting closely with our allies and partners, listening to them, listening to concerns. But that’s premature.
CHUCK TODD:
I’ve got to ask you about Afghanistan. Look, the president made clear we’re not going to be there a year from now, right? Whether it’s this May, June — I will cede you this, this sort of timeline here. But let me ask you this: How can we — how are we leaving any differently than the Russians, the Soviets did in ’79 in this respect? They left. There was no real transition in place. What — the version of the Taliban — there’s a civil war, they take over. We know what happened. How do we not think the same thing is going to happen again?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, two things here. First, the president is committed to ending this war, to bringing our troops home, and to making sure as we do that, to the best of our ability, that Afghanistan never again becomes a haven for terrorism and particularly for terrorism that targets the United States. That’s why we went there in the first place. That’s what brought us there. Look, ultimately any peace that is going to be lasting and that is going to be just has to be Afghan-led. And what we’re doing now is really energizing our diplomacy to try to bring the parties together, the Taliban, the government of Afghanistan, other key players, but also countries in the region that have interests and influence in Afghanistan to try and move in that direction. I don’t think anyone in Afghanistan — whether it’s the Taliban, whether it’s the government, and certainly not the people — have an interest in that country falling back into civil war. They’ve been in conflict for 40 years. If the Taliban, for example, wants recognition, if they want international support, if they’re part of some kind of new government going forward in Afghanistan, that can’t happen. That support won’t be there. So, you know, we’ll see how the parties calculate their interest. I think other countries also have to step up and help move Afghanistan in a positive direction.
CHUCK TODD:
Final question is this: Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin of Michigan, a former CIA officer, she’s asked the State Department to start to designate additional overseas white supremacist groups — we know that there’s some international white supremacist groups around there — and designate them as foreign terrorist organizations. Is that something you’re looking at?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We’re looking across the board at the increasing danger posed by white supremacist groups around the world. And this is a growing problem and a growing challenge. So it’s something we’re looking at, and we’ll have to decide how we can be most effective, for our part in dealing with the problem.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Tony Blinken, we got through a lot. I appreciate the time you spent. And there’s also a lot more we didn’t get to. But hopefully that’ll be for another time that you make it here on Meet the Press. Thank you —
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
With pleasure.
CHUCK TODD:
— for your perspective and time, sir.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks for having me, Chuck. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
You’ve got it. When we come back, why Democrats may find passing bills even more difficult than they thought. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us: NBC News chief White House correspondent Peter Alexander; Helene Cooper, Pentagon correspondent for The New York Times; Ashley Parker, the White House bureau chief for The Washington Post; and PBS NewsHour senior national correspondent Amna Nawaz. Welcome to all of you. Helene, I want to start with you. I want to, I want to do a little, sort of, digestion here of what we just heard from Secretary Blinken. And I want to start with you on his comments about Taiwan. And what are you — what is the Pentagon doing right now as they prepare to deal with whatever it is China’s thinking about doing with Taiwan?
HELEN COOPER:
Hey, Chuck. They’re doing a lot of talking. I mean, I think the administration, as administrations, administrations in the past have done, really wants to be sure — to make sure that they don’t have to actually do anything. It’s very similar to what you see, the same, the same role that the U.S. has adopted in the South China Sea and in the East China, in the East China Sea with China’s incursions into these disputed islands. The United States is going to talk a very strong game. And they’re going to hope very much that they’re not brought, that they’re not — their backs aren’t put to the wall because there isn’t really a plan in place. The Pentagon has many, many plans, of course. And they have options for everything. But nobody wants any kind of military conflict with China. That’s the last thing on the — that the U.S. would like right now.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Amna, larger picture here. It was just interesting that, when you think about the various challenges internationally, the administration seems on Russia and Afghanistan not to have new thinking here, right? And we could say it’s a little more developed when it comes to how to handle China. They, they seem to have a point of view. On the, on the Russia front, they do seem to be a bit at square one at how to, how to have a construction relationship with Putin.
HELEN COOPER:
It’s so interesting.
AMNA NAWAZ:
They do a bit.
HELEN COOPER:
I found Secretary Blinken’s answer to your question about Russia and Ukraine to be fascinating because we very much were going back to 2015 and 2016 and 2013 and the Crimea invasion. Ukraine is not in NATO. So there is no treaty obligation to protect Ukraine from a Russian incursion. But beyond that, this is again another case of hoping it doesn’t happen.
CHUCK TODD:
Amna, weigh in here.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with what Helene’s saying here, which is that there hasn’t been a lot of specific change that we’ve seen in terms of that overall policy. I think they’re still very much figuring out how that works. But, of course, the challenges for this administration are also very different. You’re talking about how to weigh those relationships with China and Russia in the middle of a global pandemic, given all of those other geopolitical interests and worries right now. That has to be considered. I mean, certainly, their — the approach to China the Biden administration has taken so far is different than the one the Trump administration took, which is certainly different to the one the Obama administration before them took as well. But in the midst of a global pandemic, when you’re seeing efforts at play and things like vaccine diplomacy, people exerting influence in different parts of the world in different ways, all of that is going to inform how the Biden administration moves forward. And with so much uncertainty around the pandemic right now, I don’t think they know exactly how to move forward with it yet.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter Alexander, the, the crisis at the border is something that some people think maybe — should the State Department have more involvement? There doesn’t seem to be interest in the Biden administration of, of doing that yet. That instead, this is still a problem that’s more DHS, HHS. But it does seem as if this White House doesn’t want to bring a lot of high profile attention to the issue right now.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yeah, you’re exactly right. There was news on this late on Friday, where they announced that the former ambassador to Mexico, Roberta Jacobson, the border czar as they described her in fact, would not be staying on past 100 days. That was something the White House insists was the plan all along. But what it does, Chuck, is it intensifies this pressure on the vice president, Kamala Harris. Vice president’s aides, they insist that all along, the strategy was for her to be in charge of migration and the root causes in the Northern Triangle nations of El Salvador and Honduras and Guatemala here. But she hasn’t made any trips to that region yet, although she has made trips focusing on other issues in places like Chicago and California and Connecticut, focusing on jobs and other things. And I’m told by a senior White House official that she will not be traveling to those Northern Triangle nations for at least the next two months. So you can anticipate that this issue is only going to grow and the pressure on her is going to grow as well to do more.
CHUCK TODD:
There is — I’m sure it’s going to become a talking point on the right. Where’s — you know, « why won’t the vice president go? » I’ve already been hearing that a little bit on talk radio. Let me pivot the conversation here, Ashley, to — I’m going to put a sentence here, because never have two sentences, frankly, gotten a lot of people in Washington to try to figure out what they mean. Maybe if you play Joe Manchin backwards, you’ll hear what it means. But here’s what he wrote from his op-ed. « Senate Democrats must avoid the temptation to abandon our Republican colleagues on important national issues. Republicans, however, have a responsibility to stop saying no and participate in finding real compromise with Democrats. » Just what did Joe Manchin accomplish with his op-ed this week, other than reminding all of us that, basically, he’s the guy that says yes or no to this agenda?
ASHLEY PARKER:
Well, that’s exactly right. He again elevated himself as sort of the key senator. He’s a moderate Democrat from West Virginia, who the Biden administration really has to negotiate with and placate with to get anything done, any of their legislative priorities, even though this budgetary process of reconciliation that only requires 50 Democratic votes. He is often that 50th vote and the decisive vote. And you mentioned sort of the confusion. In, in talking to a Manchin ally recently, they explained that one of the challenges sometimes in understanding and parsing exactly what he’s saying is that he is often not looking at sort of the holistic picture. And he will answer the question in front of him. Again, this is an op-ed where he actually had a chance to step back and take a moment to try to explain himself. But he often says things that seem very contradictory because he’s answering one question or another and not necessarily answering the broader thing of, he wants bipartisanship. He also wants infrastructure. What happens if Republicans won’t play ball on infrastructure?
CHUCK TODD:
Amna, bottom line, do, do Democrats think Joe Manchin will be there or not for them?
AMNA NAWAZ:
I think the answer is they certainly hope so. And look, Joe Manchin is sitting pretty right now. I mean, as Ashley mentioned, being that key vote in a 50-50 Senate is the place to be. And he’s different from Kyrsten Sinema in a couple of ways. One is he can block or kind of push back on some of the Democratic Caucus agenda. And he’s also willing to. I mean, for all the rhetoric about bipartisanship and both sides needing to come together, I’m sure if you asked him to name those ten Republican senators who he thinks would cross the aisle, he’d be hard-pressed to name those. But specific to some things like the filibuster, which you know he’s spoken out against and said he doesn’t want to undermine or weaken in some ways, you’ve got to look at where the rubber meets the road, right? You look at efforts in Georgia right now to add those restrictions to voting laws that are disproportionately going to affect Black and brown people. Democrats, of course, need changes to the filibuster rules to try to propose laws that would push back against that. Joe Manchin doesn’t have in West Virginia a Black voting base that he is accountable to. It’s not something that ideologically or politically hits home for him. So he’s going to exert influence on the things that matter to him in the way that they do.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, you’ll understand, I’m up against a break. Very quickly, how did the White House absorb Manchin this week?
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, I guess what I would just say is what’s notable that we’re seeing right now is how different the tone is as we speak about infrastructure than it was about Covid relief. On Covid relief, they basically brought Republicans in and then stuck to the dollar figure and stuck to their deadline. On infrastructure, Joe Biden himself has said that he’s wide open on how big it would be, on what the corporate tax rate would be. As for Manchin saying it should be 25 percent, they said they thought that was a good starting point in the conversations I’d had with them. And the deadline for this, Chuck, I’m told, is by August recess. So four months. We’re going to be talking about this for quite a while.
CHUCK TODD:
That’s interesting. I remember when the deadline was July 4th. It’s already moved a month, arguably, which I think it was inevitable that it would move a bit. When we come back, a Republican governor finds himself on the wrong side of his own party’s culture war. Arkansas’ Asa Hutchinson joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. One of the weapons Republicans are using with an eye towards retaking power is to tar Democrats on a number of cultural issues. But sometimes, Republicans get caught in that crossfire. When Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson vetoed a bill that would ban gender-affirming treatments for transgender youth, the state’s veto-proof Republican majorities in the House and Senate overrode his veto by substantial margins. In a Washington Post op-ed last week, Hutchinson wrote, « I’m being attacked by some of my Republican colleagues for not being pure enough on social issues and for vetoing a bill that limited access to health care for transgender youth. » Governor Hutchinson joins me now. Governor, welcome back to Meet the Press. I’m curious. This was the third bill targeting transgender youth in some form and the issue in some form that had passed the legislature. Did you veto this third bill because of the specifics of the bill or was this also — or how much of it was enough already with these bills that seem to be in search of a problem that didn’t exist?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, each bill has to stand on its own. I signed two that I thought made sense. One was girls in sports, trying to protect women’s sports. The other one was supporting medical conscience, that doctors can claim a conscience reason if they want to deny a particular procedure, but they have to do emergency care. And so those are two bills that I signed. The third one was not well done. It did not protect the youth. It interfered with the government getting into the lives of transgender youth, as well as their parents and the decisions that doctors made. And to me, it’s about compassion. But it is also about making, having the laws make sense in a limited role of government. And that’s the case that I made in The Washington Post column that —
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
— as Republicans, we need to get back and ask the question, « Is this the appropriate role of government? Are we restraining ourselves? »
CHUCK TODD:
Look, but you’ve got quite a few, and your state legislature’s not the only one like this, but you’ve got quite a few of what I think would be described as loosely culture war bills, or what I’m going to describe as culture war bills. A bill that got withdrawn, but wanted to ban anything that had to do with the 1619 Project; you couldn’t teach it in schools. Or another one that would’ve banned school — tied school funding in case you did this stuff. And I’m just curious. Why do you think there is so much focus among some members of the legislature on issues that — you tell me, is this really bubbling up in Arkansas schools?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, it’s not. But the fear is about the future. And the fear is also that we’re losing our culture. And the case I make though is that, just because you want to keep things as they have been, perhaps, you don’t need to use the instrument of the law. You don’t need to use the state to accomplish that purpose in every instance. There is the church. There is society. There is your community. And that’s where the culture is, is impacted or reflected in the future. And so again, there’s too much. As a Republican Party, it’s the principles of limited government and it’s pushing freedom and choice in the free market. That’s what the party is about. We’ve got to apply those principles even when it comes to the social war.
CHUCK TODD:
But I’m curious if you’re now, if the voters inside the Republican Party don’t agree with what you said. I want to put up something Jonathan Last from The Bulwark wrote. He said, « Republican voters no longer have any concrete outcomes that they want from government. What they have instead is a lifestyle brand. And if you want to move up the ladder within a brand network, you don’t do it by governing or making policy. You do it by getting attention. » A lot of these issues seem to be designed to get attention, right, rather than, maybe, solve a long term problem of governance.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
No, I think they’re well-intentioned. It’s just that they’re taking us in the wrong direction. And again, restraint is the word. I don’t want to criticize my Republican legislators, that I know their heart. They believe in this. But I think what I did and have said in my veto hopefully is a reminder to Republicans all across the country, as we look at particular issues and organizations trying to get us involved to pass laws, to solve different problems, ask the fundamental question: Is this the right role of government? Is there a better way to do it? Is this reflecting the best of the Republican Party and is it reflecting compassion? And I think those are important questions that I tried to ask in the bill that I vetoed. And I think that message is an important one across the country.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this about government interference, because you have made a strong case on limited government when it came to these decisions between a parent, a child, their doctor. Somebody’s going to hear that and say, « How come you don’t have the same view when it comes to abortion? »
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Absolutely. And that’s an appropriate question. But, as you know, there’s a big difference in the case of abortion, and I’ve signed a multitude of pro-life bills. I believe in protecting the life of the unborn. The distinction is that medical science is clear as to the life of the unborn. And so science — we’re reflecting that in the laws that we pass. In this case, when we’re talking about transgender youth, parents are involved in the decision making. The science is not as clear. And you have a physician that’s involved. And so you can’t apply each of those to each other. This is a separate issue. You have to evaluate them separately. But in this case, clearly, I don’t believe that this is something the government should be telling the youth, « You cannot have this treatment that your parent and a doctor recommends, » even though you could — everybody’s heart probably is in the right place in looking after the youth. It’s not an appropriate role of government, compassion says.
CHUCK TODD:
Alright.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Particularly, one of the reasons I vetoed it was there was not a grandfather clause. —
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
It would interrupt the treatment that they were having at the time.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you a larger question here about the future of the Republican Party. You know, in November you were on Meet the Press and you said you thought there would be a significant debate as to exactly the direction of the Republican Party. That was before January 6th, before all of this other stuff happened. Have your expectations now changed? Do you really expect to see a debate? Or did Donald Trump temporarily win the debate?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
No. I think it will continue. You know, whenever you look at President Trump, as I’ve said, he has a voice and he’s utilizing that voice. But there are going to be many other voices —
CHUCK TODD:
Is it helpful?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
— in the party —
CHUCK TODD:
Is it a helpful voice?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, I don’t think his most recent comments about Senator McConnell were helpful if they were reported accurately. So to me, you’ve got to engage in the fight that we have in 2022. Right now, we’ve got some important fights in Washington about a big government solution to every problem that we have. And the Republican voice is important.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Let’s — don’t undermine that voice and the leadership that we have that’s really the finger in the dike right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, a Covid question. In the bottom, in the lowest rates of vaccination, Arkansas’s in the top ten of lowest rates of vaccination right now. What do you attribute that to? We’ve seen a — there is a red-blue divide. It’s not as stark as it was two months ago, but it’s still there. Are you having trouble convincing some conservatives to get the vaccine?
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, it’s not necessarily conservative. I believe it is rural Arkansas. The fact in Arkansas our cases are low, our hospitalizations are low, and so there’s a sense that the emergency is not there. My job is to remind everyone that we’re in a critical time and we have to get those vaccinations into arms because what we see happening in other states and across the ocean could come here even into Arkansas. So we’ve got to get those shots out. We’re working very hard to accomplish that. And we’re taking our allocation.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
We’re increasing every day. Everybody over 16 can get the shot. We want them to.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Asa Hutchinson. Yeah, remind people. People can drive to Arkansas from Michigan. And we know Michigan’s got a trouble spot right now. Anyway, Governor Hutchinson, Republican from Arkansas. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Thank you, Chuck. Great to be with you today.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the rise of right-wing violence in the U.S. as told by members in and out of extremist groups. This is a story you really won’t want to miss.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The January 6th assault on the Capitol focused the nation’s attention like never before on violent political extremism, especially from the far right. In fact, far right-wing attacks have accounted for the majority of terrorist related events and plots in this country since 1994. That, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. NBC News correspondent Morgan Radford and producer Aaron Franco have been reporting on this issue for years. And they have a must-see story on our streaming show Meet the Press Reports, which airs live on NBC News NOW Thursdays and is available all the time on Peacock. Among the many people they met recently was Chester Doles. He’s running for a county commissioner seat in Northern Georgia. Doles is a former KKK member who says he’s done with the far right. But as you’ll see in this clip from Meet the Press Reports, that’s not necessarily the case.
MORGAN RADFORD:
I know that you have come out and denounced racism, but when I was looking at social media, you had put this picture here saying that Jovi Val was coming to speak at one of your rallies here. And then this is him, Jovi Val, with a racist and. And, I mean, this is a Nazi hand gesture. And then he posted here, « Get in. We’re hunting Juden. » So he’s talking about Jews. And that’s him at your platform. Do you think that’s someone who’s a white supremacist?
CHESTER DOLES:
You know, I don’t, I wouldn’t call him a white supremist. I think Jovi’s got some issues. I didn’t know he was that — quite that extreme. We were trying to find a —
MORGAN RADFORD:
But that was supposedly before you invited him. When you invited him and said you were bringing him here, he had already posted those things.
CHESTER DOLES:
Yeah. Well, Jovi was a lot with the MAGA. I wasn’t aware of any of his other street activism.
MORGAN RADFORD:
Well, what about, like, on your social media, these are the people following you with swastikas and white power signs. Why are these people attracted to you and your platform?
CHESTER DOLES:
Don’t know. Maybe they’re good people, you know, as far as being good American citizens and stuff, but I don’t —
MORGAN RADFORD:
Can you be a good person, a good American citizen, with a swastika and white power?
CHESTER DOLES:
I don’t look into people’s personal, you know, what they’re all about.
MORGAN RADFORD:
What about this one? I saw you posted just recently this year, you were posting about Valentine’s Day stickers and you showed 1488.
CHESTER DOLES:
Oh, God forbid.
MORGAN RADFORD:
What does that mean?
CHESTER DOLES:
I don’t know.
MORGAN RADFORD:
You don’t know what 1488 means?
CHESTER DOLES:
No.
MORGAN RADFORD:
All that time in, in the Klan and reading these white supremacists, 1488 means nothing to you?
CHESTER DOLES:
Couldn’t tell you.
MORGAN RADFORD:
Is it a coincidence that it’s a white supremacist —
CHESTER DOLES:
Must be.
JONATHAN GREENBLATT:
He knows exactly what it means.
MORGAN RADFORD:
Jonathan Greenblatt is an extremism expert with the Anti-Defamation League.
JONATHAN GREENBLATT:
The number 14 refers to what they describe as the 14 words, which is kind of a white supremacist maxim. And 8-8 refers to the letter « H, » right? It’s the eighth letter of the alphabet. And H-H means « Heil Hitler. »
CHUCK TODD:
You can see Morgan Radford’s complete report on Meet the Press Reports. It’s now streaming on Peacock. You’ll meet somebody who’s escaped the movement and you’ll meet some folks sparking one up on the left. This week’s episode is part of our network-wide look at American extremism, 100 days after the Capitol riot. We do hope you’ll find Meet the Press Reports all this spring as we take an in-depth look at one issue each week. When we come back, the pilgrimage Republicans made to Florida this weekend and the man they all came to see.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Well, if proximity equals power, then the simple geography of how the Republican Party spent the weekend tells you who’s in charge of this party. Ashley Parker, it is Donald Trump. The RNC having its meeting in Palm Beach County, and then having a Mar-a-Lago event. But, of course, it’s the remarks he mentioned about Mitch McConnell that even Governor Hutchinson brought up. Let me put up these remarks. And we have confirmed them here at NBC. « If that were Schumer instead of this dumb son of a blank, Mitch McConnell, they never would allow it to happen. They would never have fought it. I hired his wife. Did he ever say thank you? » You know, Ashley, you know, Mitch McConnell’s been trying to go out of his way to sort of embrace some of the Trump world’s complaints about election security and things like that with his stance in Georgia. And I guess this is the payback.
ASHLEY PARKER:
That’s exactly right. And President Trump also down there continued to perpetuate the lie that the election was stolen and criticized his own vice president, Mike Pence, for not having the courage to refuse to certify the results of a free and fair election. And therein lies the challenge for the Republican Party. If there is any leader for the party right now, it is Donald Trump, the former president. But he does not view himself as the leader of a traditional Republican Party. He views himself as the leader of a MAGA movement, of a movement of Trump supporters. And the interests between former President Trump and the Republican Party and the Republican Party leadership are frequently not aligned, to the point where Donald Trump will criticize in quite stark terms the leader of Senate Republicans, and no one quite knows how to handle this.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, Helene, when all is said and done, we keep learning more — the Pentagon provided a little more information about January 6th and the former Vice President Mike Pence begging for help, clear the Capitol. Do you think we’ll know the full story of what happened inside the Pentagon that day?
HELENE COOPER:
I think we will. I mean, I think we already know a lot of what happened. I mean, we’ve been reporting for some time, and including on January 6th as it happened, that it was Vice President Pence at the time and not Donald Trump who was the one giving, asking for the National Guard. Trump didn’t want to see the National Guard going there against people who he thought were his supporters initially. I think a lot, I think — as these details continue to dribble out, they’re going to paint a fuller picture, yes, but I think we all know the bottom line of the story, which is very much of a military and a military leadership. That because they over-responded to the Black Lives Matter protests in June, because General Milley walked across Lafayette Square with President Trump, because they tried so hard to stop him from invoking the Insurrection Act and putting active duty troops on the streets against American citizens, were now then, as a consequence, under-prepared for what happened when the tables turned. And then, you had right-wing protesters on January 6th storming the Capitol. They had been saying so long, « We’re not going to put soldiers on the streets against Americans, » that when the time came that they actually needed to, they weren’t ready to do so.
CHUCK TODD:
Amna, do you want to chime in?
AMNA NAWAZ:
I’ve got to say, absolutely. I mean, everything Helene is saying is absolutely correct. There was a reluctance on the day to respond in real-time. But you also have to look at the heart of the issue there, which was the reluctance before that event to see all of these forces as a real threat. And Morgan’s reporting on this goes to the core of all of this, which has been this rising trend of white supremacist-inspired extremism and domestic terrorism in America. I mean, white supremacy is a story as old as America. We are just now waking up to it as the leading domestic terrorist threat. It’s the biggest domestic terror threat since the Civil War, in fact. And so, you have to be able to see the way the national security bodies are responding to this now with the Biden administration. They are just now beginning to catch up to it. At the same time, I’ve got to go back to something you mentioned earlier in your interview with Secretary Blinken, which is the foreign threat has not gone away. When you look at the way that we are leaving Afghanistan, asking the same people we’ve been fighting for the last 20 years to stop attacking Americans, cut ties with Al Qaeda, we don’t know that they’ve done that. We’re leaving Afghanistan with thousands of Afghan citizens dead and, by the way, a U.S. hostage still there on the ground, Mark Frerichs. It’s not clear to his family when he’ll come back. So, the U.S. government, national security bodies have now to be able to handle both the potential for foreign threats where we’ve long focused, and this new, more important threat here at home.
CHUCK TODD:
And the Republican Party, Peter Alexander, doesn’t seem to be, at least interested at least publicly, to try to disassociate itself with so many of these folks. But we saw the circular firing squad in the party, right? So, you know, Trump goes after these corporations. Then Mitch McConnell — I’m going to play this — he actually tried to go after corporations and then had to end up walking it back. Let me play some of that sound.
[TAPE BEGINS]
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL:
My warning, if you will, to corporate America is to stay out of politics. It’s not what you’re designed for. I didn’t say that very artfully yesterday. They’re certainly entitled to be involved in politics. They are. My principle complaint is they didn’t read the darn bill.
[TAPE ENDS]
CHUCK TODD:
Now that’s already making the rounds on Twitter. Somebody said, « Does Mitch McConnell need to express that Donald Trump shouldn’t be commenting about politics? » But, you know, they’re all just attacking each other, right? All of these different constituency groups. This party seems to get more fragmented the more it doesn’t seem to figure out how to distance itself from Donald Trump.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yeah, you want to talk about new terrain, it’s having Republicans attack corporate America. The Republican chairwoman even saying, in effect, that she was going to boycott baseball. It’s hard to fathom only a matter of years ago that you would hear words like that. But I think it is this, this is why you’re seeing this sort of culture war, the coming culture war right now, where they’re fighting on issues, as we’ve talked in recent weeks on these Dr. Seuss type issues. These issues like what was going on with Major League Baseball in recent weeks because that is one issue that really does unify the Republican Party at large. It’s an issue that they’re passionate about. It energizes donors. It energizes the base here more broadly. And I think it’s a place you’re going to see the conversation continue because Republicans are on the outside as it relates to Americans’ views on the economy. Covid relief was widely popular. Republicans across the board opposed it. And beyond that, notably, some Democrats are warning even as they criticize this, saying that this can be an effective strategy. Dan Pfeiffer, a name that’s familiar, he was one of President Obama’s top advisors, was critical of it. But he said that this ship does pack a political punch and said that Democrats have to have a plan to fight back.
CHUCK TODD:
You know though, Ashley, and you’re the final comment on here, it does look like the party — you heard Governor Hutchinson. There are a lot of people that want Trump out of the party. But they don’t seem to want to do anything about it, and now it looks like they can’t.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And there are even more who want him out of the party privately. But as of now, that’s not going to happen. And the challenge they are grappling with is how do they harness some of that enthusiasm and populism and what he tapped into with the Republican base, while eliminating the more controversial aspects of Trumpism.
CHUCK TODD:
They’ve been trying to solve that problem for seven years, I’d argue, and they still haven’t. Excellent panel. Thank you. That’s all we have for today. Thank you all for watching. Be back next week. Because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.