Meet the Press – March 14, 2021
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. In a few minutes we’re going to take an in-depth look at Republican attempts across the country to pass a slew of new restrictive voting laws. We’re going to lay out the scope of the effort, why Democrats insist these new laws are aimed at hurting their voters. We’re going to talk to people on both sides of the issue. But we’re going to begin with the Covid crisis. President Biden signed the $1.9 trillion Covid relief bill on Thursday. Then gave his first nationally televised speech as president, targeting July 4th for when Americans can gather in small groups.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
That will make this Independence Day something truly special, where we not only mark our independence as a nation but we begin to mark our independence from this virus.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the most trusted figure in the country on this subject. It’s Dr. Anthony Fauci. He’s the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you, Chuck. Good to be —
CHUCK TODD:
So —
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
— with you.
CHUCK TODD:
— a year ago, literally this date, you were out there warning us. We were all contemplating how bad this would be. But I don’t think anybody, any civilian thought, “Oh we’re going to be, this is going to be a year » at the time. What would you tell yourself from a year ago of what to expect? And how shocked have you been about what this year has been like?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, Chuck, I knew it was going to be bad. And, you know, just a couple of days ago last year I said at a Congressional hearing that things were going to get much worse before they got any better. But even I did not fully anticipate that we would have over a half a million deaths a year later. I mean, we knew it was going to be bad, but this really has turned out to be just a historic example of what a pandemic virus can do. It’s just been a terribly trying year for everybody in so many respects. Not only suffering health-wise and deaths and loss of loved ones, but what, what it has done to society, to the economy, and how it has kind of deepened some of the divisiveness that we’ve had in our, in our country to begin with. It’s just made it even more intense. It’s just been a bad time all around. We’re getting around the corner. We’re going in the right direction. But boy, looking back at what we’ve been through, this — people are going to be writing about this and historically opining about it for a long time to come.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, when you think about, sadly, having to prepare for this again, right, and I know there are a lot of folks who think that, you know, due to climate change and due to the globalization in general, it’s inevitable we’re going to deal with more and more viruses like this. The biggest lesson you’re going to take away to prepare for the next one?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, there are a couple of lessons, Chuck. There are lessons domestically. There are lessons public health-wise, scientifically. Let’s take global to begin with. We have to have a better global health security network of interconnectivity, of communication, of transparency, so that we are talking to each other all the time and know what’s going on. We also have to have a continued investment in the science. If you want to look, Chuck, at the success story in this terrible year, it has been the extraordinary, unprecedented advance with the vaccine — where, you know, in January of 2020 we started the process and 11 months later, we had a highly efficacious vaccine going into the arms of individuals, which is going to be the answer to this together with public health measures. So, keep the science up, continue to support the public health infrastructure and remain global in our interactions. You know, as I’ve said so many times, a global pandemic requires a global response.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me go to what the president said on Thursday night and the dual promises about the month of May, with promise one on May 1 being everybody is eligible to get on the list, and by the end of May, anybody that’s wanting a shot gets theirs. I know that he’s not saying those goals without talking to you. Why do you feel those are achievable goals?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, they’re achievable, Chuck, if you look just at what’s happening. What the president has done — is he’s done a number of things — but two major things is he’s gotten us a much larger supply of vaccine. He negotiated with Moderna and Pfizer to get an additional 100 million doses each from the companies. We had a contract with J&J to have 100 million doses. We’ve negotiated yet again another contract for an additional 100 million doses. That’s the supply. Then there’s the issue of getting it into people’s arms. And that’s where we’ve mobilized the community vaccine centers, the community health centers, pharmacies that are going to be getting it, mobile units that are going to putting into areas that are poorly accessible. And mobilization of a lot more people who are going to be doing the vaccinations, from the military, to volunteer, retired physicians, nurses and other health care providers. So, you know, that’s really a full-court press. And that’s the reason why we’re going to be, you know, at least a couple of months ahead of where we thought we would be.
CHUCK TODD:
What worries you that could prevent us from meeting that end of May goal. That everybody that wants a shot will get their shot.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I don’t think there’s much that’s going to prevent us from having quantitatively the number of vaccines that the president promised. That I think would only be if there is a major production glitch. Those things happen. You can’t guarantee 100% that they won’t. More of a concern that I have, Chuck, is that we’ll have what’s called variant increases, where you may have another surge. If you look at the numbers that have gone down, they’ve gone down so nicely in a very steep decline. But in the last couple of weeks, we’ve had a plateauing of infections. And the thing that concerns me, as — because history proves that I should be concerned — is that when you get a plateau at a level around 60,000 new infections per day, there’s always the risk of another surge. And that’s the thing we really want to avoid because we are going in the right direction. That’s why I get so anxious when I hear pulling back completely on public health measures, like saying, « No more masks, no nothing like that. » I mean, that is a risky business when you do that.
CHUCK TODD:
I was going to ask you on your level of concern of a new surge because you want to talk about a version of P.T.S.D. for many people. When we see Europe on the uptick, we see Italy locking down again — that’s very familiar, sadly. And every time Europe upticked, it was about two or three weeks later, and so would we. How do we make sure that doesn’t, that doesn’t happen again?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, Chuck, it’s exactly what I’m saying — that even though the decline was steep, we absolutely need to avoid the urge to say, « Oh, everything is going great, » which it is going in the right direction. But once you declare victory, you know, that metaphor that people say, « If you’re going for a touchdown, don’t spike the ball on the five yard line. Wait until you get into the end zone. » And we’re not in the end zone yet. And that’s one of the issues that when you plateau, there’s always the risk of a surge. That’s exactly what the Europeans have experienced.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about vaccine hesitancy here because we’re noticing something, at least in polling, that it is not the conventional wisdom about vaccine hesitancy, that you see this divide by race. We’re seeing a bigger divide by politics. We talked about it earlier. For instance, among Trump voters, 47% have said that they will not be vaccinated, 30% say yes. Among Biden voters, 58%, 10%. Among Republican men, half of Republican men say they’re not going to take this vaccine. You have the PSA with all the former presidents, except one, President Trump, in there. Do you think he needs to be enlisted here at all to get his voters to take this vaccine?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Chuck, I hope he does because the numbers that you gave are so disturbing. How such a large proportion of a certain group of people would not want to make — would not want to get vaccinated merely because of political consideration. It makes absolutely no sense. And I’ve been saying that for so long. We’ve got to dissociate political persuasion from what’s common sense, no-brainer public health things. The history of vaccinology has rescued us from smallpox, from polio, from measles, from all of the other diseases. What is the problem here? This is a vaccine that is going to be lifesaving for millions of people. How some groups would not want to do it for reasons that I just don’t understand. I mean, I just can’t comprehend what the reason for that is when you have a vaccine that’s 94 to 95% effective and it is very safe. I just don’t get it.
CHUCK TODD:
Hopefully, your words here will help on that front. Let me talk about the AstraZeneca vaccine. It is not one we’ve approved in this country. But there are AstraZeneca vaccines that are ready to go, that could go to other countries that have approved it. We know Europe is dying for some more vaccines. President Biden is not ready to release it yet. Why?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, Chuck, I think there’s a misunderstanding there. There isn’t this whole backlog of vaccines that are ready to go somewhere into somebody’s arms, either here or overseas. I think people are getting the wrong impression about that. The president has made it clear that, obviously, the first preference, because of the extraordinary suffering that we’ve had with over half a million deaths thus far, that we want to make sure that people in the United States are covered. But it’s very clear that he fully has the intention of getting vaccines shipped to other parts of the world that don’t have the resources that we do. And we’ve already made the commitment for $4 billion that will go to COVAX. So, I think people might be getting the wrong impression that we’re holding back doses, which we really are not.
CHUCK TODD:
Well then, what are we going to do with these doses?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, there aren’t a lot of them. I think people think there are a lot of doses. I mean, I don’t know exactly how many, but they’re not anything that’s going to be major impact. There will be, but not right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. And very quickly, we know President Biden said of backyard gatherings. I’ve got a staffer or two that wants this question asked of you, and I’m sure they’re not alone, which is when can people plan an indoor wedding?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, that’s a good question. And I think that’s going to be within a reasonable period of time. You notice —
CHUCK TODD:
This calendar year?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
–what the CDC is doing — they gave — excuse me? I didn’t hear what you said, Chuck?
CHUCK TODD:
This calendar year?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
What time of the year? You know, I, I can’t give you that exact date because it’s going to absolutely depend — and this gets back to our conversation a minute or two ago — it’s going to depend on the level of infection in community. If we plateau and stay at 60,000 a day and go up with a peak, I mean, you can make no prediction. If we keep going down and get to a very, very low level, when we’re there and we have a good proportion of the people vaccinated, I think you’re going to see weddings in the normal way that we’ve seen within a reasonable period of time. But there’s always the caveat that it’s not going to happen, if all of a sudden you have a surge.
CHUCK TODD:
So, be careful in the next month or two for sure, anyway. Dr. Fauci, as always sir, thank you for coming on and sharing your expertise with us and viewers.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Republican state legislators are proposing restricted new voting laws. Democrats in Washington are trying to expand voting access. The battle over our democracy is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We’re going to take a special look this morning at the fight underway over our democracy. Republicans have proposed more than 250 laws in 45 states designed to limit mail-in, early, in-person voting, and even Election Day voting. And Republicans may have the power to achieve these goals. They hold legislative majorities and the governorships, as you can see here, in 24 states. And they have proposed some restrictive election laws in 22 of them. The bills would likely have the effect of curtailing the early vote methods, used primarily this past election by Democratic voters, and shift more voting to Election Day, when recently Republican voters have dominated. All told, the bills amount to the greatest efforts to reduce ballot access, particularly for African Americans, since the Jim Crow era. Among the states considering the changes, five that Joe Biden turned blue last year: Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Arizona and Georgia. All have Republican legislatures, by the way. And the three large states he lost by less than five points: Texas, North Carolina, and Florida. Also Republican legislatures in there. Republicans insist they’re just trying to eliminate voter fraud, inspired in part by former President Trump’s false claims that somehow this last election was stolen. Democrats say it is all a cover for an effort to elect Republicans by limiting Democratic voters’ access to the polls.
[BEGIN TAPE]
STATE SEN. LESTER JACKSON:
It smells like Jim Crow laws in the past. This smells like poll taxing. It smells like voter suppression.
STATE SEN. MATT BRASS:
This bill is about reviewing a process that we saw flawed.
CHUCK TODD:
In Georgia this week, the State Senate approved a measure that would eliminate no excuse absentee voting among other changes, undoing a 2005 Republican backed law. The Republican Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan boycotted the debate, watching it from his office.
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
It certainly didn’t feel good to put a space between myself and my Senate colleagues. But I felt like it was the right thing do to. Sometimes, you know, leadership is lonely.
CHUCK TODD:
The Georgia House passed a sweeping bill that includes provisions that would limit early voting hours on weekends and restrict the use of dropboxes for mail-in ballots.
STATE SEN. GLORIA BUTLER
People died. People were flooded. People marched and fought for the right to vote. And this just takes us backwards.
CHUCK TODD:
Republican legislators across the country are proposing the greatest reduction in voting access since the late 19th century, from Arizona —
STATE SEN. SONNY BORRELLI:
If you want to get Nyquil, you’ve got to show an ID.
STATE SEN. MARTÍN QUEZADA:
This bill hurts people of color. This bill hurts people in my district.
CHUCK TODD:
To Iowa, where Governor Kim Reynolds signed legislation this week cutting the state’s early voting period and closing the polls an hour earlier on Election Day.
STATE SEN. ROBY SMITH:
It was just a natural extension of what has happened where voters are asking for more, you know, election security.
STATE SEN. PAM JOCHUM:
That big lie has been debunked. It has been debunked more than 100 times in courts of law. In Iowa Republicans, heck, you won. You won big in 2020 here.
CHUCK TODD:
In fact, the highest profile recent example of election fraud was in 2018, in North Carolina Republican Mark Harris’ Ninth District campaign.
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
If there’s a single Republican Party county meeting going on where they’re still talking about election fraud or conspiracy theories, they’re losing ground.
SEC. MICHAEL ADAMS
There’s a false narrative that you either care about access to the ballot or you care about integrity of the election. That’s a false choice.
CHUCK TODD:
In Florida, where the legislature is racing to add new voting restrictions, a new poll shows more Floridians, including a majority of Republicans, want them to make voting easier. Two thirds of voters support adding more early voting days to the calendar.
MARC ELIAS:
There’s nothing that, that shortening the period by which people can vote early does to combat any perceived fraud. There’s nothing that closing polls earlier on Election Day does to prevent fraud. It’s really just a cover for what they’re really trying to do, which is to make it harder to vote.
CHUCK TODD:
In response, Democrats in the House have passed sweeping voting rights legislation. It stands little chance in the Senate under its current rules, where it would need ten Republican votes. Republicans argue it’s unconstitutional, saying it shifts the responsibility for regulating elections from the states to Congress.
SEN. MIKE LEE:
Everything about this bill is rotten to the core. This is a bill as if written in hell by the devil himself.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Georgia is ground zero for this battle over our democracy. And joining me now are Stacey Abrams, the founder of Fair Fight, a group that promotes voting rights; and the Republican Lieutenant Governor of Abrams’ home state of Georgia, it’s Geoff Duncan. Welcome to both of you. I want to begin with Ms. Abrams. And I want to start with the issue of HR-1. The House has passed this bill. The reality is it’s not going to overcome the Senate filibuster. So I guess my question for you is do you think its — that Democrats should pare down HR-1, focus it on voter — all things voting rights and voter access? Or is it — the focus should be on eliminating the filibuster?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I think the focus should be on protecting our democracy. We know that January 6th was the opening salvo in an attempt to roll us back to Jim Crow era. We are watching seven times the number of bills permeating across state legislatures than occurred in 2020 during an election year. And we know that the U.S. Senate, much like the U.S. House, has the sole responsibility under the election clause of the U.S. Constitution, to regulate the time, place and manner of elections. That is something that we have to accomplish. It would be best if it was done in concert with Republicans, as we have in times past when we had to confront our demons and do better by our people. And my deep hope is that we can get it done. But I would say that an exemption to the filibuster for the purposes of protecting our democracy is not only logical, it is fundamental to who we are.
CHUCK TODD:
Have you personally talked with Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema about this specific angle of suspending the filibuster?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I have not. But I believe that these conversations are ongoing amongst a number of senators. Look, I understand wanting to protect the prerequisites of an institution. I served as minority leader for seven years. But I also understand that there were times where we had to look at the fundamentals of our processes and do what was right. And we know the Senate has done so to suspend the filibuster for the purposes of judicial appointments, for Cabinet appointments and for budget reconciliation. I would say protection of the fundamentals of our democracy, which we have seen bloodily debated through the January 6th insurrection, certainly counts. And when you look at the 253 bills moving through state legislatures, sadly 50 of them through Georgia itself, we know that now is the time for Congress to take up the role that it alone has, which is to regulate the time, place and manner of elections.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get you to respond to something Jennifer Rubin wrote in The Washington Post specifically about HR-1. And she writes, « The legislation’s only hope, and it is a slim one, rests with Democrats’ willingness to pare down the measure to match the nature of the current assault on voting rights. If Democrats remove issues that will be used as a pretext for opposition, they can make this a clear up or down issue on voter suppression. Are you for or against Jim Crow laws? » And, you know, I will note you didn’t directly answer my first question about HR-1 and about the decision, should it be pared down. There are some other provisions in there that, while noble and may be good ideas, are not, are not as directly about the issue of access to the ballot box by individual voters. What do you think of that solution? Do you think Democrats should be thinking about a pared down version of this bill?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I believe the Democrats should do their level best to pass laws that protect our democracy. And I’m not being evasive. What I’m telling you is that we have to pay attention to the whole of our democracy and we have to defend and protect that democracy. That means doing the work necessary to ensure that every American who is eligible to vote can do so. I am not in the U.S. Senate. I have served in a body, a legislative body, where everything is up for grabs and everything is on the table. But I’m not going to presuppose anything other than the responsibility that Congress has, because we have an a priori issue. The a priori issue is that the Senate has to believe it has the responsibility and the ability to act. And that is why my focus is on making certain that the exemption to the filibuster be the necessary front and center conversation, so we can get something done to protect our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
If that doesn’t happen, what is your next hope of trying to prevent some of these radical changes that are being proposed around the country?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I’m not going to give up hope that something will happen. But I will tell you that Fair Fight was born of a time when we knew nothing would happen at the federal level. And we were able to mitigate voter suppression across 20 states, in part by raising awareness amongst voters. As Lieutenant Governor Duncan said himself, right now these bills are trying to solve a problem that they have yet to identify. This is not about protecting the right to vote. In the state of Georgia, the secretary of state and the governor spent great amounts of time and their political reputations defending the integrity of our elections. And therefore, these bills are nothing more than a pretext for returning to Jim Crow and stopping voters that they want to hear from. And my belief is that voters across the country, when they see that their right to vote is being thwarted, will do what they can to push back. But they shouldn’t have to fight on their own. That’s why we elected a Congress. That’s why we have a Constitution. And that is why Congress should be held to account for defending our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
If the Georgia Legislature — if these proposals get through the legislature and it’s signed into law by the governor, if these restrictions were put in place before 2020, would Democrats have carried Georgia in either the presidential or the two Senate races?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I will tell you that we would’ve worked just as hard to eliminate those acts of voter suppression as we did to eliminate the ones that existed in 2018. We were able to mitigate that harm in 2020 and we will continue to fight. The reality is voters, when they see that people are attacking their right to vote, we respond. And we respond with a fury that is borne of urgency. We would not have the American Rescue Plan that is going to lift 171,000 children in Georgia out of poverty, will serve millions of Americans and lift them out of poverty. That’s something that would not happen, but for the right to vote. And so we — I refuse to countenance anything other than the deepest commitment to defending our democracy through FairFight.com and the work that other organizations are doing.
CHUCK TODD:
This has become a big national fight for you. But I am curious, are you still thinking about running for governor in Georgia in 2022?
STACEY ABRAMS:
My focus is on making sure we have elections in 2022. And that means that we have to defend our democracy against all enemies, foreign and certainly the domestic enemies we see permeating and unfortunately populating our state legislatures, fighting hard to restrict access to the right to vote, trying to make certain that people of color and young people cannot participate fully in our democracy, which is the least patriotic thing I can imagine in this moment.
CHUCK TODD:
And if we do have elections in 2022?
STACEY ABRAMS:
Then I’ll be doing my best to make sure they’re fair and available.
CHUCK TODD:
Will you be on the ballot?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I’m focusing on our democracy and I’ll make other decisions after we’ve gotten that work done.
CHUCK TODD:
Fair enough. Stacey Abrams, really appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspectives with us. Thank you.
STACEY ABRAMS:
Thanks.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me turn now —
STACEY ABRAMS:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
— to a person you just saw name checked, Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan. Mr. Lieutenant Governor, thank you for coming on. And you were invoked, and you’ve, you’ve — you’ve yourself said, « This is a solution in search of a problem. » Let me put up these — some of these proposals in the Georgia legislature. End no-excuse absentee voting, require more ID for absentee voting, limit weekend early voting, ban offering food and drinks to folks in line for voting, restrict ballot dropboxes there. I know you’re against the top one there, no-excuse absentee voting. Are you against all of these changes?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Well, we actually have over 80 bills in the General Assembly this year that are election-related. Twenty-one of them are actually written by Democrats. But there are some good ideas that have been put in place by Democrats and Republicans. But we actually passed four bipartisan bills, election reform bills, two weeks ago in the Senate. But look, as you mentioned a second ago, there is a lot of solutions in search of a problem. Republicans don’t need election reform to win. We need leadership. I think there’s millions of Republicans waking up around the country that are realizing that Donald Trump’s divisive tone and strategy is unwinnable in forward-looking elections. We need real leadership. We need new focus, a GOP 2.0 that includes moderates in the middle to get us to the next election cycle.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you understand when people hear that state legislatures want to restrict weekend voting, particularly Sundays in the South, that it only seems to target African American voters? Do you understand why folks see that?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Yeah, absolutely. I’m very sensitive to that. And I’m one of those Republicans that want more people to vote. I think our ideas help people. I think an overwhelming number of Americans think that Republicans are the best to be in charge of our economy, to be in charge of keeping our communities safe, in charge of keeping our nation safe. And so with that, I hope more people vote. But we’ve got to have leadership in place that talks to real people and solves real problems.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think you’re in the — that right now in your party that that’s a minority view? Or at least the perception certainly when you look across the country in these state legislatures, Republican legislature after legislature is talking about making it harder to vote. You’re not, but why are you in the minority?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Yeah. Not certain. Look, I’m going to stay focused on doing the right thing. You know, this started shortly after the November elections, when all the misinformation started flying up. And quite honestly, it hurt Republicans in any sort of conversation around election reform. We lost credibility. Those were ten weeks that we can’t take back. January 6th was a pivot point for this country and for this party. And, look, we’ve got four years to win back the White House. We’re not going to do it with a divisive tone. We’re not going to do it missing, you know, solving big problems for real people. I mean, if you’re a single mom with three kids, working two jobs, you don’t care about Democrats or Republicans. You care about real solutions to your problems. That’s what we need to be focused on. We’re the party of solutions. And we need to make sure we stay focused on that over the next four years.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you going to urge Governor Kemp to veto these bills?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Well, you know, look, Governor Kemp and myself have been lockstep on the no-excuse absentee ballot being eliminated. We’re going to work hard in the Senate. I do think there’s some calmer tones coming. I think there was some real conversations. Obviously, I took a bold step not standing as the presiding officer. It was really the only way I knew to express my disapproval of it because I don’t get a yes or no vote. But look, we’re going to work hard. And like I said, I hope more people vote in Georgia next election than this previous one.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think — look, there’s been some talk, I know that Stacey Abrams’ group has been trying to enlist some key corporate leaders in the state of Georgia. You have the film industry there that is, can be a source of tension sometimes when it comes to some of these bills. It came up — it came up a few years ago when it came to those religious liberty bills that folks, that some folks had objected to. Are you concerned about a backlash sort of against the state of Georgia for this perception?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
I look at trying to capture voters’ attention just like a competition. I want to compete for their vote. I want to compete and put big ideas forward. So certainly, I think we need to continue to work hard. And, you know, look, I love the fact that the film industry’s here in Georgia. We’re not always going to agree on everything. But I think we can continue to put a great foot forward. Look, Georgia continues to be the number one state in the country to do business with. Governor Kemp has done an amazing job walking us through this pandemic, balancing lives and livelihoods. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates. These are things Republicans should be talking about, not any sort of knee-jerk reaction to an election that, quite honestly, didn’t work out our way.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the investigation into the possible interference by President Trump to the — to the voting in Georgia, one, is a legitimate investigation, and two, is it something that you think should be carried through to the very end? And if the law says he committed a crime, then so be it?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Look, I was disgusted with that call when I first heard it. I mean, look, we had played for almost ten weeks with President Trump and his entire apparatus attacking us here for running a fair and legal election. Look, I’m going to stay out of the way of the law and let them do their job. And look, I think the best thing we can do is to continue to focus ahead on our jobs at hand. And district attorneys and lawyers and whatnot can do their job.
CHUCK TODD:
You sound like somebody that may be running for a different office in 2022. Are you a Senate candidate?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
You know what? My family and I have talked about it and we’re not going to run for the U.S. Senate seat. We’re going to stay focused on being the lieutenant governor here in Georgia. And we’re going to focus hard on trying to rebuild this party and refocus GOP 2.0.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Duncan, the lieutenant governor, Republican from Georgia, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. I appreciate it.
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, more on the battle over our democracy. Plus, President Biden stakes his political capital on defeating this pandemic. Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us: NBC News chief Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson; NBC News national affairs analyst and host of The Circus, John Heilemann; María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino; and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. I want to stick with our focus on voting rights here. We did some research of just the Republican controlled states that are considering voting restrictions. Eleven have placed restrictions on mail-in voting. Nine would create new barriers to casting mail-in ballots. Nine would expand voter roll purges. Eight would limit voter registration opportunities, and eight would implement stricter voter ID laws. María Teresa Kumar, look, you, you, you run an organization about trying to get more people to the polls. Is there any of this that you see as anything other than trying to prevent people from voting? I think you’re on mute. I think you’re on mute there, María. I’ll let —
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Of course, I am.
CHUCK TODD:
There we go. Go ahead.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
So, it’s like the lieutenant governor said, that the purpose of the Republican Party and of the Democratic Party should be battling this idea, should be battling policy ideas. But instead, the Republican Party has picked up their marbles and gone home. These voter suppression laws are not new. When the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act back in 2013, 22 jurisdictions within less than three weeks, Chuck, provided more voter suppression laws. And not surprisingly, they were in the south. They were in places where we saw a growth of African Americans, young Latinos, and young people in general. So Georgia’s in the battle of a lifetime, not just for the soul of Georgia, but for the soul of America. We recognize that in the last election there were 12 million more young voters than baby boomers. Two thirds of them were young people of color. We’re seeing people compete for the vote in the Democratic Party, but we’re not seeing that in the Republican Party. 81% of folks that voted Republican this past election were white. They’re not going to be able to grow their party unless they battle ideas. But instead, they are creating restrictions in voting access. It’s becoming incredibly an undemocratic process. And that’s why we need to make sure that there’s a presence, there’s — make sure that there is a way to solve and apply the HR-1 Act that Stacey Abrams was speaking about.
CHUCK TODD:
Lanhee Chen, is, is there, is there any way of looking at these attempts and, and, and defending them? Is the, is the entire Republican message on sort of voter integrity been essentially eviscerated by these attempts to curtail mail-in voting?
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, I think that’s the problem, Chuck, is that fundamentally, if your party appears to stand against more people participating, that’s probably not going to be a popular message at the end of the day. I do think this, that if you believe fundamentally the Constitution gives states the right to control their elections and their election processes, then you really ought to be focused on trying to figure out ways at the state level to make it easier for people to participate. That would obviate the need for legislation like HR-1 at the federal level, which I agree is a federal takeover. I don’t think it is the right approach. But then you can’t, then at the state level too, be opposed to these things. So I think Republicans have to pick their fights. I think particular things, for example, the practice of ballot harvesting has been talked about. This idea that one person can return many absentee ballots. That is one specific practice that Republicans may want to go after. But fundamentally, the message of, « Yeah, we just want to make it harder to vote, » I don’t think that’s going to sell very well with time.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Hallie Jackson, it was interesting to me that Stacey Abrams, she essentially wouldn’t get into the details of HR-1. She wouldn’t get in — there is, there is internal Washington debate. « Is this bill too much of a press release bill and not enough focused on what can possibly get passed or not? » I found that interesting that she didn’t want to engage in that. And I know some national Democrats are afraid of engaging in that for fear that some of the base won’t like hearing that maybe HR-1’s not the best bill to try to get passed.
HALLIE JACKSON:
I was struck by the same point, Chuck, in your interview with Stacey Abrams, who obviously has been on the forefront of a lot of this because it really is coming down to these two options. As you correctly note, HR-1 is headed towards frankly, a buzzsaw in the Senate, right? And I think people understand that. There are some Democrats that I’ve been talking to, some sources who point out, « Yes, we do need to push the idea of some sort of an exception to the filibuster, » right? Just for this issue of voting rights, these types of laws. Congressman Clyburn has been pretty vocal about that. There is more and more discussion and speculation about that, which Stacey Abrams I think noted and said, « Hey, we don’t want to even think about paring down HR-1 until we get past this filibuster issue, right? Until we see where that is. » At the end of the day, though, and Republicans are clear in their argument. And it’s to Lanhee’s point here, they believe that it is overstepping what the federal branch —
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
HALLIE JACKSON:
— what Congress has the authority to do. But if there is not political support for it, it doesn’t really go anywhere. So Democrats may have to be confronted with this kind of a hard choice. What do you take out of HR-1?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
HALLIE JACKSON:
What do you leave in? And how do you try to get it over the finish line to make it more palatable, Chuck?
CHUCK TODD:
So John Heilemann, how does, you know, does Washington end up doing something before 2022 or not?
JOHN HEILEMANN:
Chuck I just, just to go back to your very first question, let’s just be clear about this in this case, about these bills. 293 of them I think are at the state level right now, trying to restrict voting access.
CHUCK TODD:
And we just had an election —
JOHN HEILEMANN:
It is —
CHUCK TODD:
— by the way.
JOHN HEILEMANN:
— you know, Donald Trump, that great —
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
JOHN HEILEMANN:
Yes, exactly. Yes. And an election that scared Republicans because, you know, Donald Trump came out, the great political seer and truth teller Donald Trump came out and said it on the air last year. « If we continue to have a lot of people voting and voting access gets broader, Republicans will never win again. » He laid it on the table. And I think that’s the only motivation driving Republicans, who previously, as you know, Chuck, benefited from absentee voting, benefits from mail-in voting. But in this last election, they didn’t. And now they’re trying to restrict voting. What’s going to happen on HR-1? I think, you know, it does come down to this question. I think there’s a broader question about filibuster reform. And, as you know, Joe Manchin now kind of opened the door to the possibility of filibuster reform. You’ve got the pressure coming from Clyburn on this specific issue. You can see that really the question — the answer to your question about before 2022 is where do Joe Biden and the White House come down on this because, as of right now, it seems to me that the White House right now is more reluctant to try to press on filibuster reform than even Joe Manchin is in the Senate. And it was previously seen as Joe Manchin was the lock that you had to pick. It seems like Manchin now has kind of opened the door. So the ball is now kind of back in Joe Biden’s court. And we’re waiting to see what the White House has to say about this.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Hallie Jackson, you want to chime in here?
HALLIE JACKSON:
I was subtly indicating, yeah, because I think John’s making a really important point here, Chuck. And I would say, as it relates to President Biden, I just had this conversation actually this morning with somebody, with a White House official on the idea of what is the president going to do, not just about the filibuster, but about specifically more muscular support for something like HR-1? Obviously, he has come out in statements about it. I will say there is a possibility, I would say likely an expectation, that he speaks about it when he is in Georgia later on this week. It is obviously a key issue in Georgia, as you just talked and did that segment about. And I think that President Biden will be all but certain to address it in Georgia, given the political pressures around it this week.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, María Teresa, Joe Biden hasn’t been very loud on HR-1. Do you think that’s because he’s worried how it would pass?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think it’s because he knows he doesn’t have the votes unless there’s a way to grandfather and suspend the filibuster for this. That is the point. And so he right now wants to make sure that he’s putting as many points on the board that he’s winning. But Chuck, let’s not forget that you had 139 Republicans that voted against certifying the Electoral College, the vote, even though we saw the courts, we saw Republican secretaries of states saying that this election was not fraudulent, that it was legitimate.
CHUCK TODD:
Coming up — I’m going to pause it here. Coming up, the flood of Democrats now calling for New York Governor Andrew Cuomo to resign. Stay with us on that one.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We want to note the passing of a very familiar face to many of us in the news business. Roger Mudd spent two decades reporting for CBS News, covering everything from Congress, to the civil rights movement, to Watergate.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ROGER MUDD:
Good evening. The Nixon presidency is virtually being overtaken by events tonight.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
In a long career, he is best known for asking a question that Senator Ted Kennedy simply couldn’t answer, wounding Kennedy’s presidential campaign before it even started.
[BEGIN TAPE]
ROGER MUDD:
Why do you want to be president?
SENATOR TED KENNEDY:
Well, I’m —
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And it only got worse from there. When Mudd was passed over as the replacement for Walter Cronkite at CBS, he joined us here at NBC News and briefly co-anchored NBC Nightly News with another familiar face, Tom Brokaw. And for a while, he also moderated this progress, Meet the Press. Mudd finished his career at PBS and then The History Channel. Roger Mudd was 93.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is back. And the number of Democrats calling for Andrew Cuomo’s resignation only grows in New York. John Heilemann, Schumer and Gillibrand the latest. Basically, the only prominent Democrats not calling for the resignation outside of the state of New York, I guess, at this point are the president and the vice president. I don’t know how Cuomo hangs on other than — that doesn’t mean he still won’t try to hang on. How does this end?
JOHN HEILEMANN:
Oh, Chuck. Well, I think there are a lot of things that are in play here. One of them is what else is out there. And every major news organization that I know of right now has a team of people trying to push this story further. And there are a lot of hot leads out there. Let’s put it, let’s put it that way. I think, you know, the other thing that’s true is Cuomo is totally dug in. I think the likelihood of Cuomo resigning is close to zero. And I think, you know, he is following right now, uncomfortably for a lot of Democrats, he’s following what is seen now as the Trump precedent. You know, if you are determined enough, you are shameless enough, you can hold on. And so the questions then just becomes does he actually get impeached? Does he actually get thrown out? And I think that’s going to be — a large, a large question around that is going to be what additional evidence comes out over the coming — maybe enough now, but there’s going to be a large question about what else unfolds over the next couple weeks.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, it does feel like he’s forcing that. I want to bring up, and I’m glad you brought up Trump there a minute, John. Lanhee, I want you to respond to something Tim Miller wrote in The Bulwark. He said, « Dunking on Cuomo’s demise requires admitting that the other party has standards and lays bare once again the cravenness of the excuse-making for Trump that kept the lights on for the past five years. » There’s a lot of conservative media acolytes and propagandists that are very excited about Cuomo’s downfall. But they seem to not be very self-reflective.
LANHEE CHEN:
Yeah. Look, I think you have to call out bad behavior, regardless of whether it’s perpetrated by a Republican or in this case with Cuomo, perpetrated by a Democrat. This shouldn’t be a partisan issue. And I think Republicans have to acknowledge that over the last couple of years, and starting with that 2016 campaign, there were things that were done by Trump, and now in this case that are being done by Cuomo, that look very, very similar. But I think, Chuck, it speaks to a bigger problem we have in many states in this country, which is what happens when you have one party in charge for too long. It creates a toxic environment, an environment that lacks accountability. You see it in New York. By the way, it’s the same sort of factors that are fueling the potential recall of Gavin Newsom here in California. It’s what happens when you don’t have people standing up and saying, « This is going wrong » and standing up earlier, being willing to talk about, for example, the culture of toxicity we see in Cuomo and in other states.
CHUCK TODD:
María Teresa, you know, I think plenty of Democrats are now speaking out about Cuomo. But what does it say if shame doesn’t work now for Cuomo? Shame hasn’t worked for Trump. Is shame not going to work for Cuomo?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think that, I mean, what John was saying was absolutely on the nose — that Trump has basically moved the goalpost of what is proper and what isn’t. And I think that unless there is a massive recall for impropriety by the New York voters, he won’t step down. I think he’s doubling down, unless something worse comes down, down the pike. But I would encourage us to not equivocate what has been documented with Andrew Cuomo compared to what is happening and trying to grapple with, with Gavin Newsom during his recall. His recall is trying to figure out how do you actually, you know, work better under a pandemic and a disaster. Cuomo has actual allegations, not just on the nursing home front, but also personal allegations of sexual harassment, which should not be okay in any type of work environment.
CHUCK TODD:
Hallie Jackson, the White House has obviously tried to stay out of this, understandably. No White House wants to step into something on this, that they — but at some point, you know, Schumer and Gillibrand aren’t enough to get Schumer [SIC] to listen. There’s going to be a point. Biden can’t avoid this question forever and neither can Kamala Harris.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, although they might be able to avoid it until, for example, the first news conference that the president holds, right? I think it is highly unlikely that the White House, that President Biden steps into this in and of his own accord, unless he is sort of directly pressed on this and directly asked about this. I will say there is, I think, increasing talk, or at least some talk, among some national Democrats that perhaps, perhaps Governor Cuomo could take some of the political heat off himself if we were to say he would not, for example, run again in 2022 — not that that would solve the issue, not that that would make this go away. I did have a conversation — I was trying to understand why now, why Friday was this day that seemed to be the tipping point. And Congresswoman Grace Meng, who was one of the people who called for the governor’s resignation on Friday, said she had seen what was happening on the local level, where these state lawmakers were, the increasing pressure being put on Cuomo, the dissatisfaction, the way that that impeachment inquiry seemed likely to be headed. And that for her is what made that decision. And that’s when you saw the slew of lawmakers on Friday come out on that point, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I also wondered, John Heilemann, when, when Andrew Cuomo used the phrase « cancel culture, » I thought, « Oh, really? Now you’re, now you’re, you’re going to use, you’re going to use a Fox talking point to defend yourself, and you think Democrats are going to stick by you? » It seemed like to be a really poor choice of words.
JOHN HEILEMANN:
Well, yeah, Chuck. I mean, again, it’s another part, another page from the Trump playbook. And I think it’s also — but it’s cognizant, I think, in Andrew’s mind, the governor’s mind, that New York is a Democratic state, but there are lots of — there are big chunks of New York that are not, that are not as liberal as people assume New York is. And I think the, the governor knows he’s lost the Congressional delegation. He’s obviously lost the left. He’s obviously lost — he’s now lost Gillibrand and Schumer. He’s lost everybody. He’s making a bid to try to go to essentially the Republican voters of the state to keep his numbers at a place where he can — and, and the broader, kind of more moderate Democrats, to push this off and say, « Look, let’s have a process here, » and just try to ride this out and hope that he can survive, at least so that he can finish this term and have stayed in office as long as his father stayed in office. That’s very important in the governor’s mind.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it was amazing to read today that he has no place to go. No place to live. He has no apartment. He has no house. He only has the governor’s mansion. Anyway.
JOHN HEILEMANN:
Amazing.
CHUCK TODD:
You guys were terrific, a terrific panel. That’s all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We’ll be back next week because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.