Meet the Press – July 4, 2021

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday, Covid: comeback and challenge.

LESTER HOLT:

A jump in cases of a deadly mystery virus.

CHUCK TODD:

Nearly a year and a half after the pandemic hit —

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

It looks like a war zone.

CHUCK TODD:

— with a president refusing to face the crisis —

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.

CHUCK TODD:

— and much of the country turning into a coast-to-coast ER.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

I’ve treated over a thousand patients so far myself. Unfortunately, I’ve seen too many of them die.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

I couldn’t get through the next day of work without breaking down.

CHUCK TODD:

Life-saving vaccines developed in record time came to the rescue.

DR. STEPHEN HAHN:

The FDA authorized for emergency use the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine.

MIKE PENCE:

It’s a medical miracle.

CHUCK TODD:

Now, as cases and deaths plunge and the country reopens —

CONCERT-GOER:

Unbelievably amazing to go to a concert for the first time.

CHUCK TODD:

— new challenges. Millions still refusing to be vaccinated.

UNVACCINATED PERSON:

I made it this far without getting Covid, and I don’t need to get vaccinated.

UNVACCINATED PERSON:

I don’t trust it. I’m sorry, but I just don’t.

CHUCK TODD:

And a new variant hitting the U.S. —

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

We’re seeing this Delta variant double every two weeks.

CHUCK TODD:

— and causing lockdowns around the world. This morning, we look at our comeback from Covid, how it’s changed how we live, how we work and how we go to school, and at the challenges still ahead. I’ll talk to Dr. Anthony Fauci and to a leader in the effort to vaccinate the world. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is a special edition of Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning, and a Happy July 4th Independence Day to everyone. Just as we now read about the Great Influenza of 1918 and ’19, it is likely that a hundred years from now, people will read about the Covid-19 pandemic. What are they going to take away from that history lesson? Without question, things have improved, with the number of cases dropping dramatically since January. Still, through the month of June some 608,000 Americans had died from Covid-19, including over 9,000 in the month of June, more than in World War II, World War I and Vietnam combined. At one point, the U.S. was doing so badly that though we have only 4% of the world’s population, we accounted for nearly 20% of the world’s deaths. Since then, we have gone from being the leading example among industrialized countries of how not to handle a pandemic, to a nation tentatively declaring its independence from the virus as other countries face renewed lockdowns. This morning, we’re going to look back to where we’ve been, and we’re going to look forward to the challenges ahead as the growing Delta variant and vaccine hesitancy pose a threat to our own recovery here. And we’ll be asking, what could we have done better? What have we learned? Why do some people get perilously ill, while others remain asymptomatic? And finally, how prepared are we for when — not if, but, sadly, when — the next pandemic hits us?

JOSÉ DÍAZ-BALART:

A mystery virus.

LESTER HOLT:

A jump in cases of a deadly mystery virus.

DAVID MUIR:

Authorities confirm it is being spread from human to human.

CHUCK TODD:

More than 17 months after the first case of Covid-19 was identified in the United States, the pandemic has fundamentally shifted life for all of us, politically and personally.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

It’s almost like you’re drowning from the inside.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

Having a patient ask you if they’re dying.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

The whole time she just kept saying, “I’m trying. I’m trying, and I can’t breathe.”

CHUCK TODD:

Taking a deadly toll on the nation.

TAMIKA BAILEY:

Christmas will not be the same, nor any other holiday because my mom is no longer here.

CHUCK TODD:

Now, after grief, trauma, isolation and anxiety, and an unparalleled scientific breakthrough, America is reopening.

CONCERT-GOER:

Unbelievably amazing to go to a concert for the first time.

REPORTER:

How does this compare to where we were six or eight months ago?

GREG CHIN:

It’s a night and day difference. We were back to normal as far as domestic passengers is concerned.

CHUCK TODD:

But even with the worry about contracting Covid at its lowest point on record, just 29% of Americans say the pandemic is over.

PRES. BIDEN:

Let’s celebrate the Fourth of July with the independence from the virus. We can get this done.

CHUCK TODD:

Despite the nation’s recent wide scale success in vaccinating a lot of Americans, President Biden has fallen short of his goal.

PRES. BIDEN:

Our goal by July 4th is to have 70% of adult Americans with at least one shot.

CHUCK TODD:

The nation is still recovering from the Trump administration’s initial massive failure to respond to the pandemic.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. We are going down, not up. We are going very substantially down, not up. It’s going to disappear.

CHUCK TODD:

Misinformation, originating from the Trump White House —

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

This is going to go away without a vaccine. Masks have problems, too.

CHUCK TODD:

— spread on right-wing media —

TUCKER CARLSON:

If the vaccine was so great, why were all these people lying about it?

CHUCK TODD:

— has taken root, aggravating vaccine hesitancy.

UNVACCINATED PERSON:

I haven’t taken the vaccine. And the reason is, I don’t trust it. I’m sorry, but I just don’t.

UNVACCINATED PERSON:

I think we’re moving into a medical dictatorship.

CHUCK TODD:

Eighteen of the 20 states with the lowest vaccination rates are led by Republican governors. The pandemic has also hardened the nation’s health disparities, disproportionately affecting Black and Latino communities, who also lag behind on vaccination rates. Though the economy is coming back, those gains are not equally shared. Last month, 63 million U.S. adults said it was difficult to cover their usual household expenses. One in five renters living with children were not caught up on rent. One in eight did not have enough to eat. Low-income students have been disproportionately left behind, and the pandemic has taken a toll on the nation’s mental health.

WEST VIRGINIA RESIDENT:

We’ve all been shut up way too long.

CHUCK TODD:

Now, as the U.S. celebrates its overall vaccination success, anxiety is rising about new variants.

DR. TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS:

Delta is the most transmissible of the variants identified so far. It has been identified in at least 85 countries.

CHUCK TODD:

And there is now growing confusion about mask-wearing, with the WHO recommending mask-wearing indoors, even for the vaccinated. The CDC disagrees.

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:

The bottom line is the CDC still says if you are vaccinated, you don’t have to wear a mask.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:

That’s exactly right.

CHUCK TODD:

And if ever we had a guest who required, really, no introduction, it’s the man joining me now. It’s Doctor Anthony Fauci, who is the director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Doctor Fauci, welcome back once again to Meet the Press, sir.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Thank you, Chuck. Thank you for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

It’s disconcerting to realize that we have nearly 10,000 people die of COVID in this most recent month that we completed in June. How preventable were each one of those deaths? And how many of them were unvaccinated?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Well, if you look at the number of deaths, about 99.2% of them are unvaccinated. About 0.8% are vaccinated. No vaccine is perfect. But when you talk about the avoidability of hospitalization and death, Chuck, it’s really sad and tragic that most all of these are avoidable and preventable.

I mean, obviously there are going to be some people, because of the variability among people and their response to vaccine, that you’ll see some who are vaccinated and still get into trouble and get hospitalized and die. But the overwhelming proportion of people who get into trouble are the unvaccinated. Which is the reason why we say this is really entirely avoidable and preventable.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, we’ve discussed this over and over again about what’s driving this. There’s always been sort of an anti-vaccine 10 to 15%. But it isn’t just the 10 to 15%. There’s clearly been a political divide that’s put over this. Have you discovered any new breakthroughs on how to break through this — this wall of hesitancy? Because, again, I mean, I wanted to lead with this question. I think every death right now is nearly preventable. And yet we’re knowingly watching ourselves — watching us kill ourselves.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

It’s — it’s terrible, Chuck. Particularly, you know, for those of us who’ve dealt with diseases in which you don’t have an effective countermeasure, like a prevention. I mean, over the decades that I’ve been doing this, you’re frustrated because you have diseases where you don’t have an appropriate countermeasure, be it prevention or a treatment. And then when you have a situation like you have today, where you have a formidable enemy in the virus that has tragically really disrupted our planet now for about a year and a half, destructive — destroyed economies, have just disrupted us in every possible way, and yet we do have a countermeasure that’s highly, highly effective. And that’s the reason why it’s all the more sad and all the more tragic why it isn’t being completely implemented in this country. And whatever the reasons, as you said, some of them are ideologic, some of them are just fundamentally anti-vax or anti-science or what have you. But, you know, we just need to put that aside now. We’re dealing with a historic situation with this pandemic. And we do have the tools to counter it. So for goodness’ sakes, put aside all of those differences and realize that the common enemy is the virus. And we have a tool, a highly effective tool against this virus. And we in our country are very fortunate, Chuck. We have enough vaccines to vaccinate essentially everybody in the country. And there are people throughout the world who would do anything to get vaccines. If you look at the world situation, you know, 10% of the world is vaccinated. We could vaccinate everybody if they would wind up saying that, « Let’s just put everything aside and get vaccinated and put an end to this terrible tragedy. »

CHUCK TODD:

Let’s talk about the Delta variant. It — it is clearly the most transmissible variant we’ve dealt with yet. Is it more lethal? And how concerned are you that it is — that it could cause another spike in this country?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Well, a couple of answers to the questions, Chuck. First of all, right now the experience that we’re seeing with this is that it is clearly more transmiss — transmissible. It is more effective and efficient in its ability to transmit from person to person. And studies that we’ve seen where they have been the variant that’s dominated in other countries, it’s clear that it appears to be more lethal in the sense of more serious — allow you to get more serious disease leading to hospitalization, and in some cases leading to deaths. That’s clearly the issue. Now, with regard to your other question, what was the other question, Chuck? I’m sorry.

CHUCK TODD:

No, no, no. It’s how in danger are we in this–

(CROSSTALK)

CHUCK TODD:

–variant creating a spike?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Well, I think when you talk about how much of a danger it is to do a spike, I think you then have to look at the country as a whole. And those areas of the country in which you have a low level of vaccination and a high level of viral dynamics. That’s the thing that gets confusing. As a nation as a whole we are doing very well. We have more than 50% — about 50% of the adult population that’s fully vaccinated. We have now more than — about 66%, 67% of the adult population that’s at least one dose. The elderly have been vaccinated to the tune of more than 80%, and the deaths have gone down by that. That’s the country as a whole. But we have a big country with disparity in the willingness to be vaccinated. So there are some states where the level of vaccination of an– individuals is 35% or less. Under those circumstances you might expect to see spikes in certain regions, in certain states, cities, or counties. I don’t think you’re going to be seeing anything nationwide. Because fortunately, we have a substantial proportion of the population vaccinated. So it’s going to be regional. And that’s the thing that will be confusing when people look at what we do. We’re going to see, and I’ve said, almost two types of America.

CHUCK TODD:

Mmm-hmm.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

You know, those regions of America —

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah–

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

which are highly vaccinated and we have a low level of dynamics of infection. And in some places, some states, some cities, some areas, where the level of vaccination is low and the level of virus dissemination is high. That’s where you’re going to see the spikes.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, let’s talk about a specific here. We know Mississippi’s one of the lowest, I believe it has the lowest vaccinated rate in the country. If you were in Biloxi, Mississippi right now, Doctor Fauci, would you be wearing a mask? You’re fully vaccinated. But would you be wearing a mask in Biloxi, Mississippi?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

I think there would be good reason to do that. I mean, because as we’ve said so often, that vaccines are not, even as good as they are and highly effective, nothing is 100%. And if you put yourself in an environment in which you have a high level of viral dynamics and a very low level of vaccine, you might want to go the extra step and say, « When I’m in that area where there’s a considerable degree of viral circulation, I might want to go the extra mile to be cautious enough to make sure that I get the extra added level of protection. Even though the vaccines themselves are highly effective. »

CHUCK TODD:

Asymptomatic spread was the real killer with this virus, right? It’s what — what’s made it so difficult at times when we first were dealing with it. Can a fully vaccinated person be an asymptomatic spreader of the virus and, more importantly, this variant?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

The answer is you’d have to say yes. I mean, if you’re looking at studies that are being done, we will get the answer to that because we are looking at situations where you have vaccinated people who have breakthrough infections. Namely they’re infected despite the fact that they’ve been vaccinated. Most of these people will be without symptoms. If you look at the level of virus in their nasopharynx, it appears to be significantly less than individuals who are unvaccinated who get infected and who have asymptomatic infection. So when you look at the level of virus to be lower, that would mean you could make a reasonable assumption that those individuals would be less likely to transmit the infection to someone else. Vaccinated person, breakthrough infection unlikely. But it’s not going to be zero because whenever you have biological phenomena there’s always a range. But for the most part it would be less likely.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you about, you’re somebody who — let’s say you’re somebody who took the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. And you’ve seen that the protection rate, particularly with the Delta variant, may be lower. And you wish you had gotten the Pfizer vaccine. Would you advise that person to go ahead, if they feel more comfortable, going ahead and getting a two-dose Pfizer vaccine on top of their J&J vaccine? Or are they risking some health problems for themselves by doing that?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Well, Chuck, then you get to the interesting, complicated issue of making a recommendation based on data and a clinical trial in which you have data, versus making an assumption that some people would say — and it’s being done already, Chuck. I mean, there are confident physicians and health care providers who are saying, « You know, with the J&J, a single dose, I’m not sure. Maybe we should get a boost. » You can’t give as a formal recommendation from a regulatory authority, or a public health authority, like the FDA and the CDC respectively. But what you’re seeing is that people are going ahead and making those decisions. And it really is the difference between a clinical judgment based on, you know, a feeling that, well, it’s unlikely going to be a problem to do that. But you can’t get a formal recommendation when you don’t have official data based on good science and good clinical trials.

CHUCK TODD:

I’ve asked you this before. How close are we to– we’ve been under emergency authorization. Do you expect– and you said before we were close. And sometimes scientifically close — five years can be close when you think of it in scientific terms. Before Labor Day do you expect to be — to see these vaccines fully authorized?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

You know, Chuck, I always have to give the same answer and I’m sorry. I don’t want to get ahead of the FDA in their deliberations because that would be not productive. I would hope so. One of the things I think people need to understand, that when you have an emergency use authorization it’s usually under the context of the benefit is worth more — it clearly outstrips the risk. There are varying degrees of that. When you have a vaccine like the vaccines that we have now, for example, the mRNA vaccines, the numbers of millions of people who’ve received it, the high degree of effectiveness in the real world setting is very, very clear. Therefore, I would be astounded if we did not get full approval in the classical sense of these vaccines. The FDA will have to be doing all of the dotting of the Is and the crossing of the Ts. But this is a little bit different of a situation in which you have an iffy something that’s been given an emergency use authorization. And you’re kind of waiting for a lot more data to convince you whether it works or not. There’s no doubt when you’re looking at these. So in this case an emergency use authorization, in the mind of so many of us, is equivalent to a full approval when you have such overwhelmingly positive data that you’re seeing with these vaccines.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to close with — we began our conversation with, frankly, how needless these deaths were in the month of June. Needless they were in the month of May. We have the tools to prevent death and hospitalization for just about everybody. Yes, there’s a slight, slight percentage chance for some. But when you look at the pandemic as a whole, how preventable were these 600,000 deaths? And how much did we essentially do ourselves in in 2020?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

I don’t think, Chuck, I can honestly quantitate that. I mean, this is a really bad actor, this virus. Globally through the whole planet. So even if you had a perfect response, you were going to see suffering and you were going to see death. To be able to quantitate it how much better we could have done, for someone who has been witnessing this and being part of it, at least from the standpoint of being involved in the development of the vaccines with our group here at NIH, but as a person who’s watched it unfold the one thing I was struck with is if ever there was a situation where you had a pandemic that was as destructive as this, the one thing you’d want to do is realize that you’re dealing with a common enemy. The virus. And not have the kind of divisiveness that we’ve had in our country in trying to address this terrible enemy. It’s been like, in many respects, fighting with each other instead of getting together, putting all differences aside, and realizing that the common enemy is the virus, not each other. That’s the thing that I’ve been impressed with. I can’t give you a quantitation of how many deaths would’ve been avoided if we did not have that. But I’m certain there certainly would have been some that would have been avoided. And maybe a lot.

CHUCK TODD:

How are you holding up? It’s been a tough year on you. You’ve had two different bosses over the last year. Two different — sometimes a support network, sometimes not. How are you holding up?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

You know, it certainly has not been easy, Chuck. I’m doing fine. I focus on my job. You know, as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases it was my responsibility to make sure that we did the science that got us to the vaccines that as we know now have already saved millions and millions of lives. So with regard to what we had to do, do the basic science, do the clinical science, get the clinical trials done, get vaccines, and now get — even therapeutics, which we need to do. And we’re going to be doing a lot more of that. So as far as I’m concerned, putting all that other noise aside, Chuck, and it really is noise, I just focus on my job. And when I focus on my job I’m fine. When you get distracted from the other nonsense that goes on, that makes it more difficult. But I’m pretty good at focusing on my job.

CHUCK TODD:

Yes, you are. And it is a massive success story when it comes to vaccines and what this government-led effort did. Dr. Fauci, thank you as always.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:

Thank you very much for having me, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is Dr. Seth Berkley. He’s part of an international umbrella group known as COVAX, which is working to speed up the development, production, and access to Covid tests, treatments and vaccines throughout the world, particularly those countries with less means than the industrialized world. Dr. Berkley, welcome to Meet the Press. And I want to start with — paint a picture, you know. In some ways, America’s in its own bubble with its vaccine supply, while you are trying to, to figure out how to vaccinate the world. How dire would you paint the situation right now, globally?

DR. SETH BERKLEY:

Well, certainly, I won’t be as positive as Tony Fauci was. And, and just to start and put this into perspective, this is a global pandemic. It started in a point outbreak in China, and it very rapidly spread around the world. And I think the challenge we started with is to remind people that you’re only safe if everyone’s safe, because viruses will mutate and they’ll continue to move, and that’s what we’ve seen. I think initially, people were not taking that seriously, and we saw a lot of vaccine nationalism. We saw high coverage in a small number of countries — 75% of the vaccine being used in eight or nine countries. And we now see, if you look at high income countries, about 40% of the populations are vaccinated. But in low income countries, it’s still less than 1%. And I think when India, the, the, the, the variant that came out of India, the Delta variant occurred, I think people woke up and said, « Yes, this is true, » because that went to 40 countries, and now to 85 countries. And we have to keep in mind that this may not be the last variant. So, what we need is a global process, and we’re not really there yet in terms of getting the coverage we need.

CHUCK TODD:

What’s — explain some of the hurdles, okay? I mean, let’s, you know, we made, basically you need 9 billion vaccines, minus the billion met — let’s say you need 8 billion people to be vaccinated. What are the biggest hurdles standing in that way?

DR. SETH BERKLEY:

Well, I mean, there’s many. So, first of all, as, as, you know, when we started this whole effort, we had no idea whether any of these vaccines would work, or if all of them did. And we were very lucky. We had fabulous science — first vaccine, 327 days. That’s amazing. The previous record before that was four years. So, I think to keep in mind how fast the science moved. But we normally provide, in terms of vaccines, about 5 million doses a year. And so now what we’re talking about is quadrupling that number because the number you mentioned is people, but of course, most of the vaccines are two doses. So we need double the number of vaccines to cover that, that population. So, this has been an unprecedented, in a sense, drive towards that, and, and, and we’ve been very proud to see the increased supply. Of course, we’ve hit all kinds of problems. The biggest problem we hit was, as the outbreak occurred in India, which is the largest producer of vaccines by volume, it meant that they turned national with their programs, and that meant that there were less for the rest of the world. But, of course, at the beginning, had vaccines been shared, we would’ve been able to get to health care workers and high risk groups quickly, and that might’ve dampened the spread of the infection. We ultimately, of course, need to get there.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, I want to — I’m curious. How do you handle — you’re getting vaccine contributions from China. You’re getting vaccine contributions from the United States. You’re getting vaccine contributions, I think, also from Russia, and, and, just, just among those that developed their own vaccines. The Chinese vaccine is seen as not quite as, as effective as some of these, the Moderna or the Pfizer vaccine. How do you deal with that as an international organization? Certainly, that vaccine is better than nothing for some people, but some vaccines are better. How do you equitably handle that situation?

DR. SETH BERKLEY:

Well, well, first of all, as I said, we had no idea whether vaccines were going to work when it started. But as vaccines began to show promise, our requirement is that vaccines go through a stringent regulatory agency, that they show high levels of efficacy, that they show safety. And we require WHO pre-qualification as a standardized way to look at vaccines across the world. At the moment, we’re not using the Russian vaccine and Chinese vaccine. That may change over time, but we are using a range of vaccines. We have nine vaccines in our portfolio now, soon to be 11 or 12. And that’s what we started as a priority, to move forward because we realized we, we very well might’ve needed a diversity, if it turned out that different types of vaccines didn’t work. Of course, we’ve been lucky. Now, the advantage of this, it’s not only that we did this. For example, the U.S. government, as part of Operation Warp Speed, invested in a range of technologies. Turns out that the mRNAs work very well. The Johnson & Johnson —

CHUCK TODD:

Yep.

DR. SETH BERKLEY:

–you’ve already talked about. And so what now is happening is, there are excess doses that have been produced by most of the high income countries. Our estimates are somewhere between one and a half billion to two billion doses. Those can supplement the doses that we purchased. We’ve purchased about 3.4 billion doses of vaccine. But if those countries are willing to make those vaccines available now, we can move those forward. And, for example, the U.S. did its first donation with us to Honduras last weekend.

CHUCK TODD:

Dr. Seth Berkley, good luck with this. Obviously, none of us can get out of this pandemic until the world gets out of this pandemic. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us.

DR. SETH BERKLEY:

Thank you, Chuck, for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, mask wearing and social distancing may be on the wane. But life after the pandemic may look quite a bit different than it did before this virus hit. That’s next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Data Download time. We’ve looked at unemployment and shuttered businesses here again and again during the pandemic. But there are some other ways that our economy has been transformed, perhaps more permanently when it comes to the way people get around, what they buy, and where they live. Let’s start with where they live. Check out where four of the top five markets for home sale price increases. In four of those metro areas, it’s places that are a bit more open space. Stanford, Connecticut, much farther outside of New York City; Provo, Utah; Boise, Idaho; Austin, Texas. It’s only number five in the list, San Francisco, which is a reminder that, no, cities are not going to fully empty out. There are still some cities that are going to see some increases in population. But guess what? This move out of the cities in some places has led to a bit of hesitation on public transportation. Subway ridership in particular has plummeted from pre-pandemic levels. Just look at the recent work we compared to the same week in 2019. We may be getting back to normal, but how we get around may be a bit different. So guess what? You fear the subway? You now suddenly are thinking about a car. After years of talk that people may not need more personal cars anymore, particularly Gen-Z and young millennials, maybe they will never own a car? Well, guess what. New car sales, way up. And look at how it’s impacting car prices actually. This May versus last, car prices are up 3% for new cars and a whopping 30% for used cars. Now, some of that increase in used cars has to do with there aren’t the new cars available to buy due to that ship shortage that we’ve been dealing with around the world. And by the way, those used car prices, the inflation rate there is actually contributing to what appears to be a high inflation rate overall. But still, as you can see, what you’re seeing here is that people may be changing where they live, how they get to and from work perhaps for the long run. When we come back, looking ahead to how our lives have changed from work to school to public gatherings as America continues to reopen on this Fourth of July weekend.

[BEGIN TAPE]

BRIAN NICCOL:

As everybody gets back to life post-Covid, I think it’s going to be important for, you know, organizations to just clearly identify why this is a great place for people to work and why this is a great place for you to be a customer.

AUDREY FIX SCHAEFER:

The money that we are waiting for from the Small Business Administration is the absolute lifeline. And it cannot come soon enough. We cannot open until we get that money.

MICHAEL HINOJOSA:

We’ve learned a lot through the pandemic. A lot of these things are brand new for us. We’ll — we’re going to fail forward, but at least we’re going to be trying something new for our families.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. The panel is joining us. Audie Cornish, host of NPR’s All Things Considered; Kate Snow, the anchor of NBC Nightly News Sunday and our senior national correspondent here; and Adam Grant. He’s an organizational psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the book “Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know.” Audie Cornish, I want to start with a poll number here from Gallup. Has life returned to pre-pandemic normal? Completely normal: 15%. Somewhat normal: 62%. Not normal yet: 23%. How would you have answered that question?

AUDIE CORNISH:

I think it’s pretty obvious that normal left us a long time ago. I heard you talking earlier about post-Covid. There’s no such thing as post-Covid, especially when you listen to those global vaccination rates while many Americans are hesitant to take the vaccine that is available to them. So now it’s a matter of how do we live with this going forward? How do we approach mitigation measures if and when necessary? And how do some of the industries that have been sort of culturally disrupted as a result deal with that now?

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Kate Snow, you saw the graphic about subway ridership. And I want to put up a graphic of the Cleveland baseball team and show, just attendance. This is an open air event and attendance for the Cleveland baseball team is basically down more than a third from June of ’19, pre-pandemic to just the most recent, completed month here. I think this is proof that we are not normal yet, and maybe we’re not going to be.

KATE SNOW:

Yeah. Yeah, two things. I think we’re not normal yet. And part of that is the stress that a lot of Americans are still feeling about reentry, about going back to, you know, the old commuting and the old going to the office, and all of those things. School, even. I was looking through my stories that I’ve done in the past year, Chuck. And looking at all the sort of mental health impacts and physical impacts on people. 42% of adults in this country gained weight over the pandemic, right? More than half were less physically active. Two out of three weren’t sleeping right. One in four of us drank more than we used to. So I think right now we’re in the summer of reset, right? We’re in a period where we need to get back our health, our mental health, our wellbeing, and really reset before, I think, fall in a lot of parts of the country will be a real challenge because people will be expected to go back to their employment.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, and I was just going to say, Adam, let’s talk about, what is life at work going to look like these days? I want to read something here about return to work. “I’ve heard many leaders conflate working from home with flexible work. Choosing where you work is not the same thing as flexibility over how you work and when you work.” But it seems pretty clear that culturally, this is probably a big change that’s not going away. We saw Amazon and Microsoft have an interesting test here in the Pacific Northwest, Amazon wanting everybody to return. There was a revolt. Microsoft being very flexible, everybody happy. Where are we headed?

ADAM GRANT:

Well, Chuck, I hope that flexibility is the future. We had data pre-pandemic that, as long as people were in the office half the week together, that they could work from anywhere the other half. They were more productive, more satisfied, and more likely to stay. And there wasn’t an observable cost to relationships or collaboration. There was an experiment at a call center showing that when people work from home, they were 13.5% more productive. And I think it’s been very, very slow for organizations to adapt to that. 2020 forced us to rethink that. And now, as people start to come back to some version of the office, I think that employers that force people to be onsite all the time are going to lose the war for talent. And they might not be around for a very long time.

CHUCK TODD:

And speaking of work, I want to talk about the issue of vaccine mandates, because it sort of gets back, Audie, to what you were talking about at the beginning. I’m stunned by this number here. I’m going to put it up. A majority of employed Americans apparently are against vaccine mandates. Not in favor. Obviously, we’ve had a political divide on vaccines. We’ve seen, aggressive, I mean, the idea that the cruise industry has been held hostage in the state of Florida because they would like one and they’re not allowed to have one. I feel like this is culturally getting in our way. I mean, you can’t send your kid to public school if you don’t get the measles and mumps vaccine. Is this something we ought to culturally try to change the minds of?

AUDIE CORNISH:

Well, I think there are so many ways that Covid was kind of like a low tide that sort of revealed all the different sort of divides and ways certain systems have atrophied or trends that we were already seeing. We were already seeing this reluctance when it comes to vaccines, right? We already have been seeing that in schools. We considered it sort of pocket or fringe, and now this is showing us how these things can metastasize and create greater problems. I don’t think we can answer that here in terms of work because some of this will be done as a battle in courts, right, because there are rights that employers have to say, « This is what we need our workforce to do. Please comply. » And some of it will be done by the employees, right, people who will, who will move. And I think there’s a lot of talk, for instance, about the 4 million people who quit their jobs, right, in recent months. And how kind of eye popping that number was, considering the concern about unemployment. There is a percentage of people who are voting with their feet.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I was just going to say, Adam, how much is this going to impact? I mean, are we actually going to see rising wages? There’s not a fast food restaurant in America that doesn’t have a help wanted sign. And a lot of us are wondering, « Well, maybe raise your salary? »

ADAM GRANT:

I don’t think we know yet. I think that what we’re seeing right now is a short term response to a dramatic shift in what people are able to do and what kind of work they’re willing to do. One data point that really surprised me though is that more than half of Americans say that they want their next job to be working independently for themselves, either as entrepreneurs or in the creator economy. And so I’m not sure that rising wages are going to be enough to give people that sense of freedom and flexibility that many of us got a taste of during the pandemic and are now saying, « We want more. » But I think only time will tell.

CHUCK TODD:

But Kate, it also, I think, is going to increase demand. You brought up this mental health issue. There’s many companies that don’t provide mental health care coverage. You know, maybe they provide physical health coverage, but not mental health coverage. And now, I think more people realize this is not a perk, this is a necessity.

KATE SNOW:

Yeah. Well, that’s a huge issue that was revealed, as Audie said, when the tide washes back and you see things more clearly during a pandemic. We have had a mental health crisis in this country for decades now. And for the past decade, we’re constantly reporting on the numbers of anxiety and depression, particularly among our kids rising. And the issue of access that you just raised, Chuck, has been an issue for years also. There are not enough psychologists and psychiatrists in this country. And there’s not enough access and insurance coverage, you know, to go to those people. And with the pandemic, the rise in demand for that kind of help was so great that you’ve got people on waiting lists, you’ve got places in the country where there’s one child psychiatrist for every 100,000 children.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, I know. And there are so many new apps and attempts, I mean, to try to deal with this crush with —

AUDIE CORNISH:

And can I jump —

CHUCK TODD:

— Zoom sessions —

AUDIE CORNISH:

— in here?

CHUCK TODD:

— and things like that. Yeah, go ahead.

AUDIE CORNISH:

Just for a minute, because I think she’s bringing up such a fascinating point. You know, insurance didn’t even know how to cover telemedicine visits, right? I mean, that wasn’t even widespread. We were doing some reporting on a medical school that is focusing on teaching virtually students web-side manner, right, instead of a bedside manner. There are actually going to be some long term shifts that we are going to see because culturally, we have embraced some aspects of remote work and remote interaction.

CHUCK TODD:

Yup. No doubt. All right. When we come back, we’re going to do more of this as well. But we’re going to talk about family reunions and some of the other moments of, yes, joy, but perseverance as well in what was a very tough time for folks.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Let’s face it: This country has been through a lot. For months, we watched as friends, as relatives, as neighbors became ill with a disease that had no cure and, frankly, no proven treatment. We watched as schools and offices and, frankly, our way of life, completely shut down. But we did want to take a moment to focus on other moments, moments of hope and joy, of families reunited and of the small victories we got over this virus. And, of course, to remember our health care workers who became national heroes to all of us.

NURSE:

We will wake up tomorrow morning again so that no matter how exhausted we are in the emergency department, no matter what difficulties that come our way, we will succeed.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

It has been some very hard weeks for the staff, but they’ve stood up. They stood strong, and they will continue to be here to support this community.

REPORTER:

Applauding our health care workers who are putting their lives on the line in the fight against coronavirus. People across the city took a moment to say thank you.

REPORTER:

Those moments that remind us we’re in this together.

KID:

We really miss them, so we were really happy to see our teachers again.

KID:

For my birthday, at first I thought it was going to be really boring because of quarantine and coronavirus, but it turned out to be really fun.

COVID PATIENT:

Thank you, thank you!

REPORTER:

Despite the daunting numbers every single day, Covid-19 patients are recovering and are being released from the hospital.

DR. STEPHEN HAHN:

The FDA authorized for emergency use the Pfizer BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine.

HEALTH CARE WORKER:

It’s even more emotional because Bernie here — I treated her when she was sick. And now she gets to give me the vaccine.

REPORTER:

It’s been a year since many grandparents have been able to hug or kiss their grandchildren.

GRANDMA:

Oh, my God! I can’t believe this!

GRANDMA:

This is a big, big deal.

REPORTER:

Coast to coast, signs of reopening.

CALIFORNIA RESIDENT:

I think the community is going to reopen, and things will start to get back to normal.

CHIPOTLE CEO:

People are not only physically getting past Covid, but emotionally getting past Covid.

CONCERT-GOER:

I’m glad the city is here, it’s opened, and it’s, you know, words can’t say how I feel.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. There’s no doubt that Covid was an MRI on our society. I want to put up one graphic here that I think shows it sadly so well, and that is life expectancy broken out by race and ethnicity. Life expectancy in this country went down overall. But among Black Americans, it was nearly three years. Among Hispanics, nearly two years. And among whites, less than a year. Audie Cornish, this revealed what we saw throughout the pandemic. Black and brown Americans were more at risk, had worse access to health, all of this. This to me, if we don’t see it now, the fixes we’ve got to make in response need to be prioritized.

AUDIE CORNISH:

And also, the harm to these communities. I mean, if you know somebody who has lost someone to Covid and you’re vaccinated, now is also the time to reach out and grieve with them. I mean, grief and isolation is monstrous. And this is the moment where I think we also need to reach out and acknowledge and comfort each other in the face of all of this harm.

CHUCK TODD:

Kate Snow, we’ve talked a lot about mental health. The income inequality in this country was revealed way too often, whether it’s in education, whether it was in health.

KATE SNOW:

Yeah. The socioeconomic divide in this country, we always knew it was there, but it was just so easy to see during this pandemic. You look at every measure, you look at education and kids trying to go to virtual school who didn’t even have the technology to do that. You know, you look at every single measure. I think I want to pick up on something Audie just said. I think that we all are culturally going to have to reevaluate our lives to some extent right now, too. I hear a lot of people saying they don’t want to go back to the speed of life that we were living before, the frenetic pace that many of us had in our lives. And people are valuing community. People are valuing family time, quiet time. In some ways, I think this pandemic fully changed us and made us appreciate things that we didn’t maybe before.

CHUCK TODD:

Adam, I’ve never had a closer relationship with my kids this last year than with Covid. And it’s something you’re, like, « Boy, why did it take a pandemic to do this? » And I know I’m not alone.

ADAM GRANT:

Yeah, Chuck. When we study in psychology people’s reactions to traumatic events, about 15% of people come out of them with P.T.S.D. And that’s the worst case, right? Being broken by tragedy. Over 50% of people, though, experience the opposite, post-traumatic growth. It’s a sense of not just bouncing back, but bouncing forward. Feeling like you’re closer to people, you have deeper connections. You have a renewed sense of strength. « I got through that? I can get through almost anything. » And especially seeing new possibilities and having a new sense of purpose. And to Kate’s point, I think a lot of us are doing a lot of rethinking right now. This past year has been a checkup on our careers, our families, where we want to live, and how we want to spend our time. And we should not let that crisis go to waste.

CHUCK TODD:

Audie, what about what we do for a living? I mean, I’ve never felt more powerless, you know, with the platforms you have, the platforms Kate and I have. We live in these hardened bubbles like ever before. And these information bubbles have caused death.

AUDIE CORNISH:

I would say that obviously, misinformation is a concern, but it was prior to Covid. So the question is what are the solutions. And I think the shine is off the apple when it comes to big tech. And more of these conversations are being more serious.

CHUCK TODD:

They sure are. Really appreciate all of you today. Very thoughtful panel to have on what many of us are hoping really is a different kind of Independence Day. Anyway, that’s all we have for you today. Thank you for watching. Enjoy the rest of your July Fourth weekend. And remember: you want freedom? Celebrate freedom? If you haven’t been vaccinated, get vaccinated. And if you have relatives who haven’t, encourage them to do it. We’ll be back next week because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.